Reclaim You- The Role of Families in Eating Disorder Recovery with Erica Butler

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In this conversation, Sarah and Erica Butler, PhDc, LMFT, the founder and executive director of Blue Ridge Eating Disorder Care Center, discuss the role of families in eating disorder recovery. 

They highlight the importance of families being involved and invested in the treatment process. They also discuss the challenges that families face, such as navigating higher levels of care and dealing with treatment trauma. They emphasize the need for open communication, collaboration with the treatment team, and ongoing support for both the individual with the eating disorder and their family. 

Erica provides tips for families transitioning from higher levels of care to outpatient treatment and discusses the challenges and complexities of parenting a child with an eating disorder. Sarah and Erica emphasize the importance of empathy, support, and collaboration in helping families navigate this difficult journey. They also highlight the need for education and awareness about eating disorders, as well as the harmful impact of diet culture on individuals and families. 

Takeaways

• Families play a crucial role in eating disorder recovery and should be involved and invested in the treatment process.

• Open communication and collaboration with the treatment team are essential for successful recovery.

• Families may face challenges such as navigating higher levels of care and dealing with treatment trauma.

• Ongoing support and involvement from the family are important for long-term recovery.

• Transitioning from higher levels of care to outpatient treatment requires careful planning and coordination with the treatment team. Parenting a child with an eating disorder can be challenging and distressing, and it requires empathy, support, and collaboration.

• There is a lack of education and awareness about eating disorders, which often leads to delayed recognition and intervention.

• Diet culture plays a significant role in the development and perpetuation of eating disorders, and it is important to challenge and change harmful beliefs and behaviors.

• Treatment for eating disorders should be person-focused and incorporate a health-at-every-size approach, focusing on overall well-being rather than weight or appearance.

• Support groups and therapy for partners and families are crucial in navigating the complexities of eating disorders and maintaining healthy relationships.

• Residential treatment centers like Blue Ridge provide specialized care for adolescents with eating disorders, offering individualized treatment plans and a supportive environment.

Be sure to check out Erica and her team at Blue Ridge at https://www.blueridgetreatment.com/ and on Instagram at @blueridgetreatmentpa

Thanks for listening to Reclaim You with Reclaim Therapy!

To learn more about Reclaim Therapy and how to work with a therapist on the team, head to https://www.reclaimtherapy.org.

Be sure to comment, like and subscribe here, or on YouTube and come follow along on Instagram!

• Episode Transcript

  Sarah (00:00)

  Hey everyone, welcome back to Reclaim You. I'm so excited to have my friend and colleague, on the podcast today. Erica Butler is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a PhD candidate.

  She is the executive director and founder of Blue Ridge Eating Disorder Care Center. That's a residential program for adolescents in Salersburg. It's a new program and we're so excited to have her in Pennsylvania, running this program, changing the game in eating disorder care. So excited for that and that you're here on the podcast to talk about families today.

  Erica Butler (00:26)

  Yes.

  Yes. Families are my favorite topic and I'm a big fan of the podcast. I appreciate you, my girl, for letting me join in today. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (00:39)

  Aw, thank you.

  my gosh, I'm so excited to have you. We've been wanting to record about the role of families in eating disorder recovery and partners, friends, all of the things, right? We're gonna generalize by saying families, but you know, loved ones. And you're the perfect person to talk about it. You've been doing this for a long time and like, it's a big part of your program. So I'm so excited to dive in.

  Erica Butler (00:54)

  Yes. Yes.

  Thanks.

  Yeah, yeah, it's such a good topic because I think, you know, families and loved ones in general play such a huge role. But there is a big difference between looking at an adolescent with parents versus someone our age or younger or older with a partner or friends or what those roles look like. So I think it's a really nuanced topic. Yeah.

  Sarah (01:22)

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Where do you feel like would be a good place to start and talking about this? It's a big one.

  Erica Butler (01:31)

  Yeah, so I think it probably makes most sense if we start maybe in childhood and work our way to adulthood because like I said earlier, I do think it looks different because I'm not leaning on my parents for support the same way that a 15 year old probably is. Yeah, yeah.

  Sarah (01:40)

  Love that.

  truth. Yep. Yep.

  Erica Butler (01:52)

  But yeah, think, you know, it's I think what I've seen so much from the families that we talked to at Blue Ridge is just not knowing where to start or what their role really looks like. So a lot of confusion, a lot of do I play good cop, bad cop, regular cop? Is that what you guys are seeing? Yeah.

  Sarah (02:12)

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And like, what's the line and how do I do this without my kid hating me and ruining our relationship and so stressful, so stressful.

  Erica Butler (02:21)

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of times, you know, the majority of the work that I do and so higher level of care, I think would be it's a really challenging conversation because we're asking you to do a big thing. Send your send your baby somewhere for, you know, 30, 40, maybe even 60 days along.

  So I think we're asking a big ask and not only for the families to do it, but to have their child buy into it. So it's an even bigger ask. So do you feel like it's the same way for you guys in outpatient? I know you navigate higher level of care conversations too.

  Sarah (02:57)

  Yeah.

  Yeah, yeah, definitely. And outpatient, having the buy -in from the teen or the young adult sometimes even to say, like, yeah, I know I need to do this, but I don't want to. Right? So how do we work with the family? How do we work with our clients to just like have a little bit of a buy -in to something, like some movement towards something greater than all of the suffering that they're cycling through.

  Erica Butler (03:16)

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Yeah, I think it can be really challenging, especially for young folks with not a lot of or any internal motivation based on where they're at. And we see it so much. And one of the things that we really try hard to do is even if you don't have any internal motivation right now, that's fine, we'll go external. It's fine, we'll do even if it's your phone or I mean, going to...

  Sarah (03:53)

  Yeah.

  Erica Butler (03:54)

  from in a few months or whatever that goal is, I think we really have to focus in on what we've got because I think adolescents, it's hard sometimes to see the bigger picture as it, and it's hard sometimes as adults too, but I really think for adolescents, it's hard to see what the next 10, 15 years look like if you don't find a way to recover. Yeah, yeah.

  Sarah (04:07)

  Yeah.

  yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

  Erica Butler (04:23)

  And I think a lot of times parents too, there's a lot of misinformation about the seriousness of an eating disorder, especially if your child is in a larger body. I think we get into that a lot. And I think it funnels through medical channels as well. So if the primary care or the pediatrician is not eating disorder informed and there's not weight restoration that needs to happen.

  That can be really challenging from the family too, because then I and my team are going up against a professional that maybe this family's had a relationship with for years and years. So it becomes like the tug and pull of who to family's belief. It's really hard. It's a really hard battle. But yeah, I think, you know, for families, there's a lot of misinformation about eating disorders. Luckily, I think a lot of great quality literature is out.

  Sarah (05:01)

  Yep.

  Yeah, mm -hmm, it is really hard.

  Erica Butler (05:18)

  there now. So if you Google eating disorders, think more sound research and sound articles do come up. But that wasn't the case back in our day. this is a new development or you know, if you go on Instagram, can find really quality Instagram recovery oriented Instagrams and resources for families as there was not always.

  Sarah (05:27)

  Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. This is new. Yeah.

  or something.

  Erica Butler (05:45)

  the case. So I think it can be really challenging for families to navigate the messages that they're receiving about eating disorders and their seriousness and if they can do it at home. I've been seeing a big push for families wanting to do more virtual online or virtual PHPs and IOPs or skip residential altogether. So I think it's been a hard climate to sort of

  navigate for everybody. I, you know, I don't discredit families too, because I always take the stance of families are the expert on their family. I am not. But it's a hard, it's a hard space to navigate. Yeah.

  Sarah (06:13)

  Mm -hmm.

  Yeah, yeah. What's your kind of hot take on teens, adolescents with eating disorders? What's your hot take? Like, what's the trajectory? What's most helpful?

  Erica Butler (06:36)

  Yeah, what's most helpful? I really think there is nothing better on the planet than a teenager who is connected with some adult. Like whether that is their dietician or they love their nurse practitioner that they see for bed management or you had the same therapist for a long time and that's your person, that's my hot take. Like I don't feel like

  without anybody in the room that's an adult in the room, the kid's not gonna have a sense of direction. They have to have some sort of buy -in. And a lot of times when children and adolescents get sick enough to come my way, the parent -child relationship is so strange that there has to be someone else in that relationship. And that's my hot take. It's the hardest when a...

  Sarah (07:08)

  Mm

  Erica Butler (07:31)

  teenager comes my way that has no team. It's like, boy, we are batting for zero. are like, it's really, really hard and then it's even harder to navigate after care because it's such a hard transition from residential to PHP or residential to whatever. It's even harder if you're not going back to somebody that has helped you navigate prior. It's a hard go.

  Sarah (07:39)

  Yeah.

  Yeah, yeah, getting to this point, yeah.

  Erica Butler (08:00)

  Yeah, that's my hot take is I just feel like all an outpatient team works wonders. And I know, you know, it's probably a hot take from like a residential girly, but I believe it through and through like have a team that you can follow with you because we're short term. PHP and IOP are short term. Who is going to be able to follow you through your life's transitions? It's your therapist. I've had the same therapist for 12 years. It's a long haul. So.

  Sarah (08:26)

  Yeah, it is, it is. Yeah, I love it, I love it, yeah. And when families are kind of faced with this, I think a lot of times, especially from the outpatient level, it's like collaboration, of course, with our client, with the team, but also like the family is also, you know, our client in a way of mobilizing and trying to support to make these really hard decisions. So what do you see as the parents' role there in supporting

  Erica Butler (08:29)

  That's my hot take. Yeah. Yeah.

  Yes.

  Yeah. Yes.

  Sarah (08:56)

  the outpatient team and their child to make these big decisions while also maybe knowing like yeah something else has to happen because I'm worried about my kid. I want them to be okay. I want them to be healthy.

  Erica Butler (09:04)

  Yeah, right. Right. And I think what I genuinely like the outcomes that we see in higher that I see in higher level of care, we see better outcomes when there are families that are invested, that are willing to learn, willing to break patterns that are identified to not be recovery oriented.

  families that attend family therapy and family nutrition, families that are open to the team recommendations. And open does not mean you can't have questions or thoughts. So I think I just want to differentiate that open means hearing what the team has to say and giving it even a day or two to just think about it. And that's what I see the biggest difference in recovery outcomes child by child with similar presentations.

  The ones that have long lasting or a shorter length of stay are the ones whose parents are open to the idea of seeking higher level of care when the outpatient team recommends it. The ones that are coming for visits, they wanna do family meals, they want to learn, they come to the psycho education groups, they're doing their own research. Like there's nothing better to me than when I'm talking to a family. And she's like, well.

  And when a mom or a dad is like, well, I read on the internet and I actually love that because it's one of two ways for me. It's either, you you found some really quality source that has actually helping you understand something about eating disorders or it's a great opportunity to talk about what trustworthy sources are and maybe why the resource you found is not accurate or we could look at it a different way or it's, you know, just really.

  Sarah (10:31)

  Because you're reading.

  It's not.

  Erica Butler (10:55)

  not what we're looking for here. So I think I love when families are invested. I love when they read up on it. They try to get books. They are in it to win it. They're solidified as a unit. The families that are more challenging, I think on my end and my team's ends, are that the family that view this as a child only, a person only problem. This is a problem that my loved one, my child needs to navigate on their own. I don't know how.

  I don't know how this happened. I'm not involved. Let me know when she's fixed. We'll pick her up. That's the hardest for me to navigate because it's like, how do you, it's a hard wall to break down that this is a family, we have to treat the whole family, siblings at some level. We try to get the siblings involved if there is a good friend or there's grandparents that are super involved.

  everybody in this bubble. that I think for me makes all the difference is even just being willing to hear me out. We can we can have a nice conversation about it. And maybe you know, maybe you know something, maybe they know something I don't. But at least being open to the conversation, I think makes all the difference. Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (11:52)

  Yep.

  Yeah, yeah, it feels so similar to us as clinicians looking at the greater system of, you know, eating disorder trajectory and even like how eating disorders are manifesting because of weight stigma and oppression and all of those things that the greater system and then the family system to how when people are entering eating disorder treatment, it's like paradigms get flipped on their heads. Right? Like people, people's worlds are rocked and how they understand relationships with food and body and that

  Erica Butler (12:24)

  Yeah.

  Yes!

  Mm

  Sarah (12:41)

  does have to a lot of times be a systemic change within the family unit. So it's sustained over time.

  Erica Butler (12:45)

  Yeah, so it's sustained. And that's, you one of the things that I always when I'm speaking to parents, because they often, you know, they want to know what what this looks like, you know, I'm dropping my pride and joy off with you, Erica, how do I stay involved? What does this look like? And I say I my program is short term. It's a it's a therapeutic program by design, the ultimate therapeutic place to be. Because we made it that way.

  Sarah (13:14)

  Yeah.

  Erica Butler (13:15)

  Real life is real life and that's our goal for your child. So that means we need you, we're asking you to do the good family work, the good family nutrition, come in for a family meal to see how here in this environment we would coach your child through a challenging meal. So when you go home, you know how to do these tools because I'm only here for 30 days. You're in it with your baby angel for the long haul.

  Sarah (13:38)

  Right, right.

  Erica Butler (13:44)

  So yeah, I think it's so important for families to be involved in every step of treatment. Ask questions, get in there with the team. you're not sure about the higher level of care business, rely on your outpatient team. A lot of times it's like you and I, you have a good relationship with the higher level of care. And I have a good relationship with the outpatient team. So when we make those recommendations,

  You can rely on your folks that know what they're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (14:15)

  Yeah, yeah, and who know your kid and know your family and know, right, like opportunities for growth, are growth edges and also like strengths of your family and how you communicate or how you support one another.

  Erica Butler (14:23)

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a really, it's really tough. Sometimes we see parents that are not on the same page and that can be really, really challenging. And I think one of the things I also always recommend is parents and loved ones to be receiving their own therapy. Always, always find yourself a couples therapist.

  Sarah (14:43)

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

  Erica Butler (14:49)

  you know, if you have a teenager that is needing higher level of care or struggling through an eating disorder, it can take a large strain on the marriage, on the relationship, on the family as a whole. So it's not only your child that is going through a tough go. So we always, I mean, it's like once a week, I'm like, I really think that couple's therapy is going to help because I think a lot of times it's just trying to get

  Sarah (14:59)

  Yeah.

  Erica Butler (15:15)

  partners on the same page about a lot of this. And sometimes we, know, sometimes I can't even say sometimes, it's always, you know, dads that are struggling or always moms that are struggling. It really is a 50 -50. But it's hard. A lot of times one parent has an idea about how this should look that doesn't line up with the other parent. And it makes our job challenging because we're over here in this other circle trying to figure out how your child fits into this.

  Sarah (15:34)

  you

  Erica Butler (15:44)

  So yeah, sometimes it's really, but normally I always recommend it for every family to be seeking support ongoing that can follow your family and talk about what it's like to come home and just continue to support long -term. It's hard.

  Sarah (15:57)

  Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. What tips do you feel like you have when folks are coming out of a higher level of care back home? Maybe they're doing a virtual PHP, IOP. Maybe they're not doing anything and they're just going back to their outpatient team because that happens. It sure does. What recommendations do you have for folks who are navigating that and heading home? How to...

  Erica Butler (16:12)

  Yeah, yeah it does.

  Sarah (16:25)

  re -enter as a family unit into your home setting. It's intense.

  Erica Butler (16:29)

  Yeah, it is. It's really intense. one of the things, know, stepping down specifically to a partial program or, you know, a higher level of care program, I always recommend, I think, you know, still keeping the outpatient team involved if possible. know insurance sometimes is really stinky about continuing and having multiple folks and multiple levels of care.

  If the family is able to financially, I always recommend keeping the outpatient team involved, whether that's bi -weekly nutrition, bi -weekly therapy sessions, or even just keeping, if finances are a barrier, giving an ROI for your outpatient team to communicate with your higher level of care team is gonna be huge because that outpatient team, again, in a perfect world.

  has worked with your family for all of this time and can provide so much valuable insight to the higher level of care team. And maybe it would save your child the need to repeat if there's trauma. Saving your child, unless it's a growth fostering opportunity for your child to speak their truth. And then of course we want them to do that.

  But I think there's a lot of times for kids that I've seen, they're like, my God, a new team, I have to tell this horrible thing to a not -star from scratch. I already told Sarah my story and I have to tell Erica my story. And I get it. I'm sure it's not fun. So I think that communication is going to be huge. I think that's really important. And I think, you know, really soaking in what the team has to say about

  those meals at home. The weekend, the dinners, the snacks, I think that's where sometimes families get caught up and like my team, the team is taking over. And I love that the team should be, the team should be holding down the fort, so to say. But I think one of the hardest challenges that would be our navigating step downs here is the parental anxiety that crops up. We give that three week mark, all right, we're getting there.

  Jenny Lusu is coming home and it's these parents, there's like this excitement because of course your baby angel, she coming home, it's like good thing. And then it's like, and then there is the past experiences, the past challenges. no, we're gonna not be able to go out to eat. She's gonna wanna do this, that and the third with meals or how are we gonna navigate family dinner when I have siblings? And so I think,

  Sarah (18:44)

  Much care

  Erica Butler (19:07)

  making sure we have a really good discharge plan is always crucial. What is this going to look like? That's why we do our family meals here on site. Let's start getting some practice in. Let's do some day passes with going out to eat with the family. You come back, how did it go? What are we looking at? So I think really prepping for discharge the whole way through is going to be huge. And then continued coordination with the PHP team. If it was a really hard weekend, if

  Sarah (19:23)

  Mm

  Erica Butler (19:35)

  I mean, me as a therapist, I mean, if it was a hard weekend in my child's four, so I mean, even if it's a hard weekend, like I'm dropping her off at daycare, I'm like, listen, had a tough go. We had a tough go. We had big feelings all weekend. Yeah, lots of big feelings. Yeah, always. If there's one thing's constant, it's big feelings. But I think, know, as telling parents too, you're not annoying your child's treatment team.

  Sarah (19:46)

  some big feelings all weekend. That's a truth in my life.

  Yes, yeah.

  Erica Butler (20:00)

  when you drop off to PHP on Monday morning, or even sending an email if things are the hustle and bustle, hey, Jenny Lou Sue had a tough go this weekend. I thought we were ready to do X, Y, Z. This is how it went. This is what I tried. Can we have a family therapy session? we coordinate something? And I think families often struggle with how to navigate with the team and not sure where their place is. So I think I always try to stress when we...

  talk to families that have already sat down like, you get in there. The teams want you to be involved. So I think that's my higher level of care navigation. Outpatient, it's a tougher go coming back from residential, but I always say we need to beef up. If you're going back, if PHP and IOP are not an option for whatever host of reasons, we have to beef up that outpatient team.

  How many outpatient sessions can you have in a week? What's your therapist availability look like? Dietitians, same go. Who's your PCP? How often can we get in there for labs, weights, vitals, all of the things? Who's doing psych med management? Wrapping that with a nice pretty bow is going to be everything. So that's what we really try to do.

  Sarah (21:16)

  Yeah, yeah.

  Erica Butler (21:20)

  And it's really hard. But we've seen, you know, we've seen folks really go to outpatient and get, you know, and do the deal. It just is, I think, a very intentional dance on what that's going to look like. And I think everyone has to be on board with coming home from residential and seeing your outpatient team once a month. It's never going to be my recommendation. So we have to be very clear with what stepping down to outpatient.

  Sarah (21:43)

  you

  Erica Butler (21:49)

  really looks like. mean, we're creating probably what it's like a mini IOP just with people that you know, not a program. Thoughts on that? Yeah.

  Sarah (21:53)

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Now I'm with you. I'm with you. When folks are coming out of residential and we see it, you know, with adults too, adults who have work or whatever it is that they're not able to go to a program, we get really creative and we really, we want to like uphold people to be able to like continue at least some momentum and where they were, even if it's a holding pattern, right? Like, fine. Like let's just...

  Erica Butler (22:06)

  Yeah

  Yeah

  Yeah. Do it. Yeah.

  Sarah (22:21)

  sink this in and be where we are so that we can at some point move forward, you know, wherever we're going. So yeah, like creating a mini IOP meal support, know, outpatient groups, anything. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (22:26)

  Yeah. Yeah.

  The whole thing, even sometimes a recovery coach, like someone that you can text on the weekends or whatever that looks like, just any sort of somebody that you can lean on for support, I'm here for it. Yeah, because it's a hard go. Yeah, yeah. And it's hard. I think it's just hard on everybody. So teenagers are...

  Sarah (22:47)

  Yep. Yep. It really is. It really is. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (22:58)

  I mean, obviously my bread butter, because that's what I do. And most people are like, teenage girls. like, it's my buddies. I love a spicy teenage girl. And it's my favorite when parents will call and I talk to them about the assessment process. they're like, Jenny Lu Sue is not going to be impressed. I'm like, I love it. Like, darn. But teenage girls, I think it's because I was a spicy teenage girl. But I'm like, hmm.

  Sarah (23:03)

  Be like, love them.

  Like that's sweet.

  Mm

  Erica Butler (23:25)

  It'll be great. We'll have a good time. We can we can be spicy together. Yeah. Yeah. What else? Anything I'm missing about about adolescence? It is. It is. It's really, really hard. mean, a lot of times. I mean, I've had a couple folks come my way that we've really had to play the long game. We've really had to play the long game. I think everyone, you know, when you think about residential,

  Sarah (23:26)

  It'll be great. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

  I don't think just that it's hard. mean, it's just hard.

  Erica Butler (23:54)

  There's this way, I mean, know Blue Ridge, not to toot my own horn, but it's really different in that way. I will play the long game. Bigger facilities don't have the ability to keep beds or to keep a spot open or keep anything open, the case open, I guess, for a long period of time. There's been times that I've talked to parents on the side for two months playing the long game, especially as kids get...

  Sarah (23:59)

  Yeah.

  Yep. Yep.

  Erica Butler (24:20)

  adolescents get closer to 18 or are 18, which is like, you're an adult, but in my eyes, like you're not real. I mean, not really. Like you're still, you're still like a nugget to me, just a little nugget. But by legal age, you know, you're 18. So I think it becomes a much more complicated conversation with parents. Or we see a lot of times parents that don't know how to navigate if their child had treatment trauma. And that's

  Sarah (24:27)

  You're like still a baby, but you're an adult. Yeah.

  Yeah, that's a big one.

  Erica Butler (24:48)

  And that's a big one. They went somewhere else and it was really hard. It was just not a good fit for whatever reason. I think that's really challenging for families, for not only for them to buy in again, but to have that conversation with their child and navigate, navigate that piece. So it can be a a really delicate dance to have with the family.

  And it's a tough go. Sometimes you gotta play the long game. And what I tell parents a lot of times is we wait for moments of motivation. And we capitalize on them. And that's why when I talk to families and they're like, we're just not sure, we just wanna get information. Jenny Lusue is not, well, I don't know why keeps it. It's just working now. Now it's my catchphrase. Jenny Lusue is my girl now.

  Sarah (25:16)

  Yeah.

  we try to hook in. Yeah.

  I love it. I love it. It works. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (25:44)

  but Jenny Lusue is not willing for whatever reason. And I mean, I've never taken somebody into program. It's like, whoa. Like, I can't wait to miss out on school and go and face my fears. This is great. So I think there's a lot of that that I've just, I just know it's going to be there, the resistance of treatment. But I think

  Sarah (25:52)

  Like I can't wait, this is gonna be great.

  Erica Butler (26:08)

  you know, talking to when there's those moments like setting up for success. So that means really looks like for me that we've done the assessment, we've done insurance verification and we are just sitting idle. Just sitting idle because I do think those moments of recovery do come through for these kids. So when we played the long game, the second Jenny Lusue is like, mama, I can't do this anymore. We're on it. We've got the bed. We've got insurance. We've done the assessment.

  Sarah (26:32)

  ready.

  Erica Butler (26:36)

  let's move on that. Because we don't want to wait. And I think that's what I tell parents a lot of times. Let's set it up in a fact. And I always tell you, I'll talk to your child. That's fine. That's fine. I can absolutely hear what's going on with your child. A lot of times they just want to see that, I mean, not that I'm cool, but I'm not uncool.

  Sarah (27:00)

  You're cool, Erica, you're cool.

  Erica Butler (27:01)

  Eh, you know, the kids here remind me every day that like, I got a lot to learn. Like, very mindful, very demure, like, what is that?

  Sarah (27:10)

  I I still don't, I keep seeing it. I have no idea, but it's fine. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (27:13)

  I think just for like sometimes, I mean, I always offer myself up that like, I have a cell phone, a work cell phone that, you know, anybody can call me on and we can set up a FaceTime. I can walk you around the building and just see that I'm a real person. am use humor, but it's real. And how can we work through this?

  And I think a lot of times that makes a lot of the difference for the families to have someone that they can ask questions, but also I'm not scared of hard conversation with your kid. Your kid's not gonna hurt my feelings. I've been doing this long enough that it's all good. I'll be okay, I'm a big girl. But yeah, so I think that's really important too, is if you are in a space where you're waiting for those moments of motivation. And I think that works the same for out.

  Sarah (27:49)

  Yeah, it's okay.

  Erica Butler (28:02)

  outpatient a lot of times too for folks. If you're like, you know, I think my 16 year old just needs to see a therapist and someday she wants to and someday she doesn't connect with the outpatient team. And can you just say like, can we move on this the next time she's ready? Can we schedule a session? Can we just like, make something happen? You know, do you guys ever see anything like that come your way? Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (28:21)

  Yeah.

  yeah, yeah, absolutely, all the time. I mean, teens, adolescents come in and they don't super wanna be there. I get it, I get it. They'd rather be, I don't know, doing whatever teens do. Right. Exactly, that's what they're doing. That's not what I'm doing, but that's what they're doing. Because I don't know what it is. But yeah, and in our practice, I say just all we're doing is building a relationship, right? That's it.

  Erica Butler (28:34)

  So, yeah.

  Yeah, what the cool kids do, whatever's very demure and very mindful, that's what they're doing. Yeah, no, me neither.

  Yeah, that's it.

  Sarah (28:56)

  That's it, we're gonna create a foundation so that when they're ready, then we start to move in. It's like the dance of readiness and unreadiness. And I guess we could look at stages of change or whatever, but when they're ready, we're gonna do a little bit, right? Not too much, because too much is gonna send people reeling, whether you're a teen or an adult or whatever, but we're gonna just try to make it comfortable, try to make it human, try to make it as relational and friendly as possible.

  Erica Butler (29:01)

  then yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Yeah. Yeah.

  Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Try to find our inner cool girl. But yeah, no, I mean, I think it really is. It's an art, it's a dance. It's a lot of humor and a lot of naming it to be uncomfortable. And I think that's okay too. Or this is new or it's challenging or it's scary. And I think a lot of times when we talk about eating disorders, even just saying like, I know this is not where you wanna be.

  Sarah (29:32)

  Mm -hmm. Yeah.

  Mm Yeah.

  Erica Butler (29:45)

  I know it. And to be honest, this is not where I want you to be either. Like, I want you to be playing soccer or going to prom or going to the movies or whatever, watching TikTok on your couch. Like, loud and clear, I want that for you. So can we even connect on the ground level that you don't want to be doing this?

  Sarah (29:48)

  Right, yeah.

  Erica Butler (30:09)

  And I'm clear, because when I was a teenager, I was in therapy and I did not want to be there. No, no, it took a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Like what can I so like we then we see, you know, OK, fine. If your only goal is to do this because mom and dad said you have to and you can't go to prom or you can't, you know, go to the college in California from Pennsylvania if they can't.

  Sarah (30:12)

  All right, of course, of course. Yeah. It's like, what can I do to get out of here? Right? Sometimes that's the thing.

  Erica Butler (30:34)

  feel like they can trust you or feel like you're safe that far away without coming to treatment, bet. We'll work on that. Let's do it then. I'll take it until we can find some inner motivation of what you want to recover for. I mean, a lot of times we take it day by day here at Blue Ridge. Even sometimes it's like I just want to try a bite of this food to add extra phone time in the evening. If you like it, I love it.

  Sarah (31:01)

  Yeah, yeah.

  Erica Butler (31:01)

  Like, fine, have to start somewhere a lot of the times and building that rapport where we can because it's not easy, especially if we treat a lot of kids with trauma. It's really hard. Yeah.

  Sarah (31:13)

  Yep, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think one of the hardest parts is really for, like we said earlier for families, that it's not just your child who's struggling with an eating disorder, or even if you're an adult, right? It's not just you struggling with an eating disorder. Your entire system needs support because it is such an intense experience, right?

  Erica Butler (31:24)

  Mm -mm. No!

  Yes, and eating disorders thrive in isolation. So I think it's it's this very scary thing for the family because a lot of times the kids we see just have sort of become reclusive. And I think it's a challenging spot for parents because all of a sudden it comes out that my child is really struggling with XYZ behaviors. I thought they were just being kids and like wanting

  Sarah (31:49)

  Mm -hmm. Yep.

  Erica Butler (32:02)

  to hang out in their room and didn't want to talk to me. Now I have to navigate that my child has had an eating disorder under my roof for all of this time. Am I a bad parent? Did I do this to them? Where have I failed? So then we're navigating this parental shame. And now my kid is struggling so much that this outpatient team thinks my Jenny Lou suit needs to go to this scary place. The whole thing, it's a spiral. And I think

  Sarah (32:04)

  Yeah.

  Shame.

  Erica Butler (32:32)

  I think I get it so much that it makes you empathetic to that experience and really try to do it differently because it's not an easy go. These families are so clearly in distress. It's like heartbreak after heartbreak and how can we find a sliver of hope that like, it's okay, the buck stops here, you're here, we got it. let's band, yeah, like let's band together. And I think one of the things I say to parents all the time is you have been doing this.

  Sarah (32:33)

  Yep. Yep.

  Yeah.

  Yep, yep, yep. Let us help you. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (33:01)

  by yourself for so long. Allow me the opportunity to co -parent with you for 30 days. Like we can do this together. And just what a relief it is. I always like imagine it's sort of like when my mom comes to visit, like comes to visit like my house. I'm like, thank God my mom's here. Like a real adult is in like the, like the expert has arrived.

  Sarah (33:08)

  Mm -hmm. Yep.

  I love this, yeah.

  -huh. A real adult is here to like hold it down for a little bit.

  Erica Butler (33:28)

  this is great for me. And she, you know, gets in there. She still wants my opinion. She still wants me involved, but like grandma and my daughter, know, bestie. that's why, yes, it's like she can navigate that space and do the deal. I almost like view it as like, you know, I'm not a grandma, but like I can be your family's grandma. on. Like here to help. So it's just a really tough guy.

  Sarah (33:39)

  She can hold some of the big feelings for a little while, right? You can do it together.

  huh. Yeah, absolutely.

  Yeah, and one thing that came up for me as you were sharing that is I know, and there isn't a lot of education about eating disorders like we said earlier, right? And so a lot of times what we hear or what I hear on my end of like the outpatient world is like, just thought it was a phase. She said, or he said, they said they had an eating disorder and I thought it was a phase. I thought it would pass, and like, shit, here we are, right? Yeah.

  Erica Butler (33:58)

  Yeah. Yeah.

  No, yeah.

  yes.

  like, no, like it's been a year and now the doctor is saying this or the team is saying this, that's hard. That's hard. And a lot of times I think our society, and you'll have to write me back in because I'll soapbox on this, but I will try to be succinct with my thoughts here. Our society is obsessed with fitness and healthiness, which is synonymous with fitness.

  Sarah (34:32)

  That's hard.

  go soapbox, get on it.

  Yep. Yep.

  Erica Butler (34:51)

  And so I think so many times I have young women, young folks in my office and they'll say, I just wanted to lose a little bit of weight for X, Y and Z. Okay, because that's how it starts. All eight out of 10. That's how it starts. And I think parents have a sometimes have a diet culture mindset.

  Sarah (35:08)

  Mm -hmm. Yep.

  Erica Butler (35:18)

  that they believe that this will make their child happy. They feel like it is their, you know, like, yeah, absolutely everyone, you know, if she wants to have healthy, if you can't hear, if you can't see me, I'm air quoting. So I just want everybody on the Health at Every Size movement to know that I'm air quoting these comments. But like these, you know, parents are like, well, I, you know, I wanted her, that would make her feel better about herself. Or she wanted to start eating quote unquote

  Sarah (35:22)

  Yeah.

  air codes.

  Air clinic. Yes. Yes.

  Erica Butler (35:47)

  better or moving her body more, whatever that looks like. And absolutely, I hear that. And it's a very, very slippery slope from that to a full -fledged now eating and changing my weight, shape, size is my entire life. I cannot see anything beyond that. And I think, you know, it's really hard for parents. I think it's

  specifically challenging for dads of young women. because I think a lot of times, you know, like my dad is just like, Eric Lee. He just doesn't, you know, I think a lot of times dad and I see it with my own husband and my daughter. Dads are not always sure how to navigate the female experience. And so I think it's challenging for dads a lot of time because they're like, well,

  Sarah (36:27)

  Yeah. Yep. Yep.

  Erica Butler (36:35)

  She wanted to lose weight, I'm all, you know, I'm just here. I'm here whenever you want to So yeah, I'm over here. She wants to have a kale salad. Like, I'm here for it. So I just think it's really, I'm here, I'm doing it. And I think it's really hard. And a lot of times, I think moms can relate in a lot of ways to wanting to change their own shape, weight, size. So there is like this way of,

  Sarah (36:40)

  I'm making her whatever she wants. Yeah.

  A massage in the kale, yeah.

  Erica Butler (37:04)

  a female bonding experience, we've seen that. Well, then it's like, yeah, let's do it together. Like, let's go and do a lot of this. And I think what we try to teach families that I'm very big on is health promoting behaviors that do not impact weight, shape, size. And we rely on our medical team a lot to say that your weight in the overall health pie is nothing.

  Sarah (37:24)

  Yes.

  Erica Butler (37:33)

  There are so many other things that we are working towards. If that's moving your body in a way that makes your brain feel good, because you like it, makes you feel strong, makes you feel energized, whatever it's doing, we love that. If, you know, listening to your body after you eat and what that feels like, if you're so hungry, have more. We're just trying to teach like basics here of how we can change the language in homes and in families.

  because that's really what we're up against. And it's a huge battle to be up against diet culture that is just everywhere and so intrusive and annoying. My four year old was talking about things that were being healthy and that triggered me, cause I'm like, where'd you hear that from? Cole told you that cause it was not me. Yeah, because this is a safe space and I need to know who.

  Sarah (38:06)

  It is.

  Yeah.

  Right.

  because it has to end, right?

  Erica Butler (38:24)

  in your life told you that but it starts so early. mean the other day we had ice cream and she said to me mommy ice cream is unhealthy.

  Sarah (38:31)

  Like come again.

  Erica Butler (38:31)

  And I said, my girl, I said, who told you that? said, ice cream is yummy, huh? Like it's good. So I think it's really hard because it permeates everything. Like everywhere people have ideas and there's so much misinformation everywhere on nutrition and all of the things. So I think it's a really tough place for families to navigate. But I always tell parents,

  Sarah (38:34)

  Wait a minute.

  Erica Butler (38:57)

  You cannot go wrong with All Foods Fit. It's the easiest diet to navigate. Like if you wanna be a diet family, All Foods Fit is the easiest one for you to navigate, because you just show up and eat.

  Sarah (39:02)

  so easy. All foods fit!

  Yeah. Yeah. And trust and trust that like when all foods fit, all foods are gonna fit and it's gonna feel normal.

  Erica Butler (39:16)

  Yeah, and it's all good. You like salmon? You like it? I love it. You like McDonald's? Even better. So it's just, I think I tell parents all the time, like you're on the right track. You just need to come over to my team a little bit. But do you guys see a lot of that where parents just don't know where to start with food? Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (39:21)

  Love it.

  Mm

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where we call a lot on our dietitian friends, from the outpatient side of things, to do some education with families, to read the really wonderful books that are out there now about feeding children, and really just working together as a unit between the therapist and often a family therapist and the dietitian, parents, teen, our concern, especially.

  Erica Butler (39:43)

  Yeah, yeah.

  Yes!

  Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (40:02)

  when folks are over 14 is like working with the teen. If we don't have a release, we can't work the family. It's a whole thing. It makes it a little bit more challenging, but we really want to support people to understand what a supportive feeding environment can look like for people, which again, requires for a lot of families, most families flipping your paradigm about food and bodies on its head and doing a little bit of work to say like, wow, like what are my beliefs about food?

  Erica Butler (40:04)

  A whole thing. Yeah.

  Yeah!

  Sarah (40:28)

  Where did that come from? Like what can I let go of even just a little bit to make this a safer space for my kid?

  Erica Butler (40:28)

  Yes!

  Yeah, yeah, that little bit of introspection on where it came, like where those ideas came from are going to be huge. And then I always tell parents to I need you to believe your child when they say to you that something that you said or did might have been triggering. I know you didn't mean it like that because you're a good parent who loves your baby angel. I know that. But when they say, Mom, when you ask me X, Y and Z, it's challenging. And one of the challenges that I offer up to the child is

  Sarah (40:48)

  Yep. Of course.

  Erica Butler (41:02)

  Can you tell your parents what is a preferred method of asking the question? Because we also have to understand parents are under a lot of anxiety. They are so worried about you. So how can they ask? How can they ask if you're back at school and they're desperate to know if you ate lunch today? They're desperate. Mom just wants to know if Jenny Lusue ate the lunch she packed or if she tossed it into the trash. Like mom wants to know, how can...

  Sarah (41:10)

  Yeah. Yeah.

  They just, yeah.

  Mm -hmm. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (41:30)

  mom ask you about that in a way that mom gets hurt, you know, feels okay. And also you aren't triggered by mom poking around in your business that, that, you you don't feel like mom trusts you. How can we have that conversation? And a lot of times it takes the child to really say, this is what I want to do, mom. Like I will, I will tell you, I don't want you to ask me first thing I walk in the door, makes me feel like that's all you care about or

  Sarah (41:39)

  Mm

  Erica Butler (41:57)

  but how can this look so that everybody feels like we're in communication and in a good place? Because sometimes it's just little tweaks to get everybody off of the defensive. Big time. And we see that a lot with couples. Not to segue into adults, but I think that one is huge for couples is the shift from partner to where you're not well is to primary caretaker.

  Sarah (42:04)

  Yeah, yeah. Right, right. We all want to be on the same team as much as we can.

  Yeah.

  Erica Butler (42:25)

  which is really hard and then throw kids into that mix. It's hard, it's really, really hard. And when I was working with all ages, of course now we're adolescents, the hardest thing was partners. I think they really, really go through it. I think there's really challenging, especially navigating treatment when someone is a parent. And you've got kiddos watching.

  Sarah (42:27)

  It really is.

  Erica Butler (42:50)

  what you're doing at home and what your meals look like or what they don't look like or what you say and what you do. And then there is the like quadruple guilt chain trifecta behavior thing that goes on. That's really hard to navigate. Do you guys see that a lot working with adults? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (43:00)

  Yep. Yep.

  Yeah, yeah. And it's just debilitating a lot of times, like the shame that can be connected to it, because like, my gosh, my reason for recovery was maybe my kids a lot. We hear that all the time, right? Like don't want my kids to struggle like I have. And how much harm have I done by showing them these behaviors and doing these things and doing them secretly where shame has also thrived in secrecy in that way. And now my husband and I or my partner and I were not even like relating to one another and

  Erica Butler (43:16)

  Kids. Yeah. Yeah.

  Yes.

  Yes!

  Sarah (43:34)

  We're not talking and we're not intimate and like it just snowballs.

  Erica Butler (43:37)

  Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard because I mean, if we're gonna be realistic, marriage is a tough go at its baseline. And parenthood is a tough go at its baseline. Add in any sort of mental health, specifically eating disorders, it's a challenge. It's a really, really hard challenge. And I think...

  Sarah (43:48)

  baseline.

  Erica Butler (44:03)

  You know, the majority of folks, think a lot of my information is often biased towards working with women, but I never want to, you know, take away that men do have eating disorders and they are valid and are real. But I think from my perspective, the women, the older women that I've worked with, it's been really challenging for them to navigate that experience with their husband. I've seen, you know, folks be separated.

  Sarah (44:14)

  Thank

  Erica Butler (44:30)

  during treatment because it's just really the husband is like, I need a break. Like I need a break and it's another really delicate dance of sticking in there. I've also had husbands say it feels like parallels to my friends that have partners that are addicts. And I think, know, that's really hard too. And how do you make

  Sarah (44:50)

  Yeah.

  Yeah, absolutely.

  Erica Butler (44:58)

  you know, and I guess I'll repeat myself, but that role from partner to caregiver parallel is really hard with the defense event because I think parents are in a position of power like that. They're in a position of power where like, you know, end of the day, I run your life. mean, I'm paying for your life. I'm paying for this. The parents have a little bit, you know, more power there as a partner. It takes on this really complicated

  Sarah (45:09)

  Mm -hmm. They are, absolutely.

  Right, like you're going.

  Erica Butler (45:25)

  dynamic of how do I ask my wife if she ate lunch today? Like how do I check in because I've seen these behaviors that I saw six years ago, six months ago, cropping back up. How do I handle that? Or a really fun one is postpartum. How do I handle that? Because now I've got a newborn baby nugget and my wife is also on.

  Sarah (45:31)

  Yeah.

  Pardon. Ugh.

  Mm

  Yeah. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (45:55)

  And it's a really, really tough and tricky space. My wife's body has changed. Her mental health is wherever it's at after having a child. And we are all in this really chaotic part of our lives with a newborn. Unwell, unslept, unkempt. all of the, yeah, it's a hot mess after a child at baseline.

  Sarah (46:11)

  Yeah, yeah.

  Disaster. Yeah. At baseline. baseline. Throw in an eating disorder. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (46:24)

  It's really, really hard. And I think, you know, I don't know if you guys have seen this phone. I was working with adults postpartum and after having a child is a really tough time for folks in recovery because even for me, things ain't looking like they were prior to motherhood. just it just looks things things are just different. And, you know, especially for folks that had

  Sarah (46:43)

  Right, yeah.

  Test this one. Yep.

  Erica Butler (46:53)

  even a neutral relationship with movement, the opportunities to move your body in a way, or really do anything. I mean, even just go to the restroom or out the window. But move your body, mean, things are gonna be different. It's a huge transition, like meal times.

  Sarah (47:02)

  Do anything.

  Right.

  things are so different.

  Erica Butler (47:17)

  are gonna be different in your family. My child, I don't ever think he eats dinner with us at four years old because we just rotate on crustables, chicken nuggets, macaroni and cheese, maybe a hot dog. We're just rotating the same opportunities every day. So it's just the whole thing. It's just a really big challenge for parents and the couple unit.

  Sarah (47:19)

  Yeah.

  Same.

  Yep. Yep.

  Yeah, yeah, which speaks to the need, like partners of folks, really, like the support, the support is huge. The support, like having your own therapist because you also have needs, right? Like it's so easy to get like pulled into meeting the needs of the person that's struggling, which yes, they deserve to be supported and so do you.

  Erica Butler (47:49)

  Yeah

  Yes!

  Yes. Yes. To you and so do you and I think it's such a one of the things that I always tell partners is find a group that's just partners that that's just partners and I think especially if it's someone identifies as male, I think that's that relationship is gonna be huge.

  to find other folks because it's such an isolating experience. I can only imagine it feels like I'm the only one going through this. I must have been like, my wife thinks this that and that about her body. Like, I must not be doing my job. I think that there's so many shame spirals there that getting around other partners in the similar space is going to be huge to, you know, even be the realization well.

  Even when I talk about youth out parenting, I'm like, well, Sarah's a good mom and her kids have big feelings. So I think there's a commonality that's very comforting to see another human being able to talk about these experiences in a way that makes us feel not alone. I think that's huge. Yeah. Yeah.

  Sarah (49:02)

  Yeah.

  So yeah, and I think you're right, that connection, even just like our experiences of children with big feelings, right? Like talking to a friend or a colleague who has like a very quiet, mellow, just kind of like go with the flow, that is not my experience. They can't necessarily, good, good. And you can't quite, like we're not speaking the same language.

  Erica Butler (49:22)

  No, and I'm like, I love that for you. You know, right, right, until your Apple Watch goes off that the sound decibels have hit the roof for the third time today, we don't, you don't get the Butler household. And that's okay. But I think sometimes especially, you know, being a therapist, it's hard out here being like, my kid.

  Sarah (49:38)

  Yep. Right, right. It's okay.

  out here.

  Erica Butler (49:49)

  My kids, one that, you know, we get the special parent conferences that I always find out that are just for me. Cause like, wow, they're really doing these a lot. Like, they're, they're just, and I'm like, wow, they have great communication. Like they really want to meet with me for like the third time this quarter. Like, wow, we have a lot of conferences. And then I go in and I'm like, so you guys are doing them again? They're like, not for everybody. I'm like,

  Sarah (49:49)

  Woof!

  I know the notes home or the binder or the notebooks and the

  Not for everyone. I see what you're... I see where you're going with this.

  Erica Butler (50:19)

  Okay, fine. Valid and, but yeah, I just think there's something so comforting about an experience. And I think that there's such a way to connect with other folks. Like, how are these other parents, caregivers, whoever, how are they navigating? How are they taking care of themselves? What is their relationship look like with these meal times, intimacy, couples therapy?

  Sarah (50:38)

  Yeah.

  Erica Butler (50:49)

  How does it look like? they go with their wives to their doctor's appointments or do they stay home? I just feel like there's something that cannot, that it's just, you can't get anywhere else from a group of people that have a shared experience. Yeah, yeah. So that's always my recommendation. Find a group and maybe the outpatient or the family therapist or whoever you're working with. I mean, they can even post on a Facebook group. know, most therapists are in Wondify, you know, that connect with other therapists.

  Sarah (51:01)

  So true, absolutely, yeah.

  Yeah, yeah.

  Erica Butler (51:17)

  post in there. Does anybody know of any, you know, partner support groups, free or low cost or in person, whatever. Get in there and connect with somebody because I think that is going to be huge. Yeah, going forward. Yeah. Me too, my girl. Yeah. sure. thanks, Sarah.

  Sarah (51:30)

  Yeah, well I could talk about this all day. Yeah, yeah. But before we wrap up, give us, give us the details. Tell us all about Blue Ridge. You guys are doing really, really beautiful work up here in the, in the valley. You know, it's really exciting that you're here.

  Erica Butler (51:45)

  Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I will give you the tea on Blue Ridge. we will be on our year of being open in November. So I can't believe that we are coming up on a year. But I you know, we opened Blue Ridge in November 2023. I have worked in eating disorders, higher level of care for a long time. And I really wanted to do my own thing. So was very excited about

  Sarah (51:51)

  Yeah.

  Erica Butler (52:14)

  about having the opportunity to open Blue Ridge. So we're adolescent specific. We are gender affirming, program. And we're really small. So we have 16 beds, but our census has never been over 11. So I think we're a very different experience to...

  maybe what else is out there of like bigger treatment programs that have like a very uniform sort of protocol. We don't. We follow some, we do IMT, Integrative Modalities Therapy for Eating Disorders, some CBT, Emotionally Focused Family Therapy. But I think what's so different about ours is we don't have any sort of one size fit all anything. So we've become sort of this

  Sarah (52:58)

  Mm

  Erica Butler (53:01)

  place for families to have a child's presentation that doesn't fit them all, which they never do. I've never seen a need to sort of show off the exact same way. But we become this sort of place for families that are like, I don't think my child's going to do well in a big facility. We become a place of, know, my child has a lot of different things going on medically, nutritionally, mental health. We've just really sort of found our niche. We have 24 seven nursing so we can take

  Sarah (53:07)

  never do.

  Erica Butler (53:29)

  you know, more medically complex kids and get them out of the hospital, which is huge for me. Like, I want you to be in a place like this where you can do the family therapy and the family work and our fun art therapy and have more of a semblance of a life than you would in the hospital. But it has been an absolute journey. So I know I talk like, but it's been a journey. It's been a lot of learning, navigating.

  Sarah (53:33)

  great. That's great.

  Erica Butler (53:53)

  I've never had a facility that's my own. So even though I've been doing it a long time, it's very different to work with people that have, that this is their thing, you're helping, you're the director, you're this. Being the one stop shop is like, boy. It's a different, it's really, really challenging. There's a lot of similarities, because I'm still just as involved as I was in every job, because

  Sarah (54:09)

  The one. The one.

  Erica Butler (54:22)

  just in there. It's just like who I am to like be involved in all aspects and to care very deeply. There's those big feelings again, but to just care very deeply about everything all at once. But it has been an absolute joy of my professional life to get to get to open a facility that views and treats eating disorders in the way that I view eating disorders to be person focused, to be truly health at every size.

  Sarah (54:23)

  It's just who you are. It's in your blood. Yeah.

  There's those big feelings.

  amazing.

  Erica Butler (54:51)

  to be anti -diet culture and to pick out furniture that is accommodating of all body sizes, to get a hand in the meal plan to accommodate, we can do vegan, we can do kosher, we can do halal, we can do all of these different things that I just, yeah, it's just been a professional joy to get to do it. We don't have any level systems or anything. I'm really big into, do do you follow Dr. Jenny?

  WH. I'm like, I'm upset. a big fan. So she ever hears this, my girl, big fan. But I think, you know, it's huge for me as someone that works in higher level of care to think about anti -carceral treatment and take it not as I think a lot of times bigger treatment centers get like offended by these posts because they're like, I love it. I am here for it. I'm here for it because I think I understand.

  Sarah (55:39)

  Yeah. Yeah.

  Erica Butler (55:45)

  the harm that's been done at treatment facilities. And I think that it's life -saving work, but yes, there's inherently harm built in and what can we do to reduce that? And I think if more facilities took on that, and I also will never be the person higher level of care that doesn't think it's valid for outpatient teams to practice harm reduction and not recommend higher level of care. Because I see both sides and I think both are real and both are valid.

  I love it. It's been like this beautiful intersection for me. We've done, really trying to get into like, you know, more social justice stuff in the upcoming year. So I really want to do, you know, more scholarships for folks. Really want to do a BIPOC scholarship in 2025 is up and coming. So trying to just reinvent recovery. That's my old tagline, my shameless, my shameless plug.

  Sarah (56:40)

  gonna say change I'm like changing the game yeah yeah

  Erica Butler (56:44)

  But yeah, it's been, like I said, it's been the professional joy of a lifetime, truly. Yeah, a lot of work, but we're doing the damn thing.

  Sarah (56:49)

  Yeah, I love it. think you're doing a lot of work and a lot of beautiful work. And I know we met probably like a year ago, maybe a little under a year ago when you were first kind of like gearing up to open. And I was so excited that we were going to have another option in Pennsylvania for young kids to really get good care.

  Erica Butler (56:56)

  Yeah.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. we are the only adolescent specific residential and PA and it's it and it's just crazy to me that we're the only but like now that I'm here like don't come in, know, don't nobody comes to my thunder. I like to be number one. But no, it's just like Pennsylvania has so minimal resources. It's just like let's

  Sarah (57:18)

  And...

  Yeah.

  Erica Butler (57:24)

  be small and we mind our business and we're over here in the Poconos. That's where I like to be. Thanks, Sarah. Appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you. This was fun.

  Sarah (57:29)

  Yeah, yeah, doing really good work, doing really good work. Yeah, so we're so grateful you're here. It was fun. Thank you so much. And like I said, we could talk about this probably all day long.

  Erica Butler (57:40)

  All day, I could keep you here for hours if you'd let me. We really should. We'll do it again.

  Sarah (57:43)

  Sometime we should. We will. We will. Alright everyone, so be sure to check out Blue Ridge. I'm gonna link to their website in our, in our, what's it called? In the show notes of this episode so you can check it out. Follow them on Instagram, all the places. Doing really great work. And yeah, thank you again so much. And alright everybody, we'll be back next week with another episode. So until then, take good care. Awesome.

  Erica Butler (58:01)

  Thanks. Thank you.

  Sarah (00:00)

  Hey everybody, welcome back to Reclaim You. Casey's here today and we're talking all about what to do when the motivation for recovery just isn't there or motivation for at life things, lifey stuff.

  Casey (00:16)

  Yeah, anything. Life is tough. Very, very real.

  Sarah (00:20)

  Yeah. Very real, very well. So we were kind of talking about gardens before we started recording. Casey, tell us about your garden. It's gonna tie in, so just hang in there with us. Tell us about your garden this summer.

  Casey (00:32)

  it will. is motivation ever wavering in the garden? Even on a good year. But it's been a bad year. You know, I think of like, in March and April, where you're like all excited. You're like, my gosh, I'm gonna plant this variety and I'm gonna try this new technique and you know, this is how I'm gonna set it up and everything. And you go to buy stuff and you're investing time

  money and sweat and tears and just to get it started, right? Which if you're starting from seed, you literally see nothing in the ground. And then if you're starting from starts, they're like these little babies, right?

  Sarah (01:13)

  Wait, so do you start from seed or from starts? Okay, okay.

  Casey (01:16)

  Both. Both depending on the variety. There's some things that don't like to start from seed or they take too long or they germinate fast enough. So everything has their own need, which is a whole other part of this. So I take pictures throughout my years, save them to kind of see what years were good, what years were bad, so on and so forth. And I get really excited. like, I can see this just flourishing.

  And then like, in southeast Pennsylvania, we had a very, hot summer. Like a very, very hot, and if anybody's listening from, I don't know, the West Coast, it's not as hot. But we have the humidity that you guys don't have. So it's like swamp. It's like down south mixed with the heat of the West, all in Pennsylvania. It's gross. And because of that, plants don't like that. And so they don't...

  Sarah (02:02)

  Yeah, it's gross.

  Casey (02:13)

  flourish. So you get a lot of disease, you get more pests, things don't progress as much as you want them to. know, watering is like, when do I water? I watered and then we had a torrential downpour that nobody planned for and nobody predicted. And it's like, great, I overwatered my plants, which plants also don't like. Things get burnt, know, peppers and stuff like that gets sunburned. And so I'd say probably about

  two or three weeks ago. So we're in like July and none of my tomatoes have blushed and no cucumbers have shown up and my green beans are burnt and the only thing doing well is flowers which aren't going to give me any food which is upsetting.

  Sarah (03:01)

  Well, I'm glad your flowers are at least okay. are burnt to a crisp. Mine are like, singed.

  Casey (03:02)

  They're really killing it. Mine are killing it. Well, it's because they're hidden. They're hidden between all of the things. And I start spending less time in the garden to the point where my husband starts going, did you water the garden? I was like, I can't tell you the last time I watered the garden. I don't know. Did the rain get there? Maybe. And I noticed that that probably lasted for like three weeks.

  I didn't really look that much. Yada yada. And then like this week I went out there. Tomatoes are blushing. My sunflowers have shown up. I have a watermelon and a cantaloupe. Yeah. And my milkweed is doing well. So that's cool. And then lo and behold, what do you know? I'm out there and I'm picking and I'm pulling and

  pulling things out that have died and it's like a bummer, right? You put all that effort in and you just pull it out, but it kind of felt good to pull it out. You know, like it's not working. It's not happy. The best thing I can do is just kind of get rid of it to allow other things to flourish. And we had torrential downpour last night and I haven't gone out there since, but I'm sure it's not going to look great. But it doesn't negate the fact that I have

  made some progress, and not every year is going to be great. And that's OK. So it does not also deter me from doing it next year.

  because I remember my first year was a joke. I mean, that's not compassionate, but looking at it now, I'm like, no, stop. you know what? By year five, you're going to be killing it. I'm just saying.

  Sarah (04:46)

  It was probably the way mine looks like right now. yeah, this is year one and it's a hot mess out there.

  I texted Amanda, the dietician on, with Reclaimed Nutrition, and I was like, does this look right? I can't remember what it was. It was like a couple months ago, and she's like, you can do it!

  Casey (05:08)

  That's because I'm always saying to her, you can do it when she's like, this thing's dying, right? So gardeners come together, right? There's tons of Facebook groups and YouTube and all kinds of stuff where you see other people struggling, whether it's like, this is the worst gardening year I've ever had, or how to take care of things in the heat, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you realize that it's not your personal fault.

  but rather it's just the world that we live in and we can't do much about it. The best thing we can do is adjust. So drum roll please. How? What? is there a thing for that? Drum roll please.

  Sarah (05:44)

  Wait, wait, wait, there might be, hold on, there might be a thing for that. Hold on. Here we go, drum

  We're testing out new features!

  Casey (06:04)

  I loved it. That was everything. This connects to recovery, right? Because a lot of times, you know, we come into this journey, whether it's recovery from an eating disorder or just healing from trauma, and you show up and you're like, okay, anything's got to be better than this. Right? I feel sick and tired of being sick and tired.

  somebody tells me there's a different way, somebody has some positive to show me, you know, I'm down or I'm a little trepidatious or I'm really uncertain and I don't know how this is going to look, but usually you have some form of expectation and then you get into it and you're like, wait, so I'm doing this thing and it's uncovering more and then

  This is totally left field from like eating disorder or like you just get more and more deep into the complexities of everything and it gets overwhelming. On top of that, just like gardening, it's not my full -time job. Therapy is not someone's full -time job. Their dietician is not their full -time job. So having to keep that as a priority 24 hours a day, seven days a week is exhausting.

  I think the thing I hear most from clients is like, am so sick of talking about my eating disorder. I'm so sick of constantly having to think more about my coping skills or my nervous system or like, do other people live like this? And I have like a mixed bag perspective. I'm like really excited that people see that because I think it's really insightful.

  I think it speaks to maybe a more compassionate journey of like, yes, this is a lot more work than the general public has to put into their life or is willing to put into their life. At the same time though, does that tell us something? Does it tell us that, you know, maybe we have too much on our plate or maybe, you know, we're going into this like really, really hard.

  And it is too much and overwhelming. Maybe we need to take a step back, slow down. You know, that a lot of people go into this journey and they think abstinence only model because a lot of our recovery, therapeutic modalities believe in abstinence. I should correct that, not therapeutic modalities, 12 step modalities believe in abstinence and it can.

  Sarah (08:56)

  But higher levels of care too, right? There can be this idea of, just stop, and we're gonna do this so that you stop the thing, and we're gonna stop the behavior, and we're gonna recover, and whatever. It feels very black and white.

  Casey (09:00)

  Right.

  Yes, agreed, agreed. And the idea that you get out of those programs and you just go into life and that's supposed to be sustainable. And most of the time it's not. And people often blame themselves, right? If I was in this for this long and I'm investing this much time, how do I go out of this and not have motivation to keep it going? Well,

  It's like if a garden goes from a nice safe greenhouse and then it transfers to out in the open where there's elements that it can't control and there's less protection and less resources and less nutrients. Like it doesn't have the same stuff. So when things change, things change. And it's the same thing in outpatient. know, if you, you know, we have our between

  you know therapists we have all the summertime beginning of summertime is a trigger point or Christmas and the holidays is a trigger point or the New Year is a trigger point those are like your seasonal ones, but there's also you know, seeing my really fat phobic aunt and that really screwed me up or caught up with my college friends and You know, I haven't seen them in a couple of years and I'm really scared. They're gonna see how I've changed and

  I'm starting a new job, I don't have time for recovery, right? This is another priority in my life. And all of those are extremely valid. Nobody comes up to me and says, I'm a piece of shit because I haven't watered my garden for three weeks. Why?

  Sarah (10:54)

  I mean, I might say that.

  Casey (10:58)

  Well, listen, you're just proving my point. Okay? That's not doing you any favors.

  Sarah (11:04)

  It's not doing me any favors. It's not helping my motivation to get out there and figure out why all my plants are diseased.

  Casey (11:10)

  You can't shame yourself into this, right? So to look at this and say, okay, if I don't judge myself for that, why would I judge myself for my situation completely changing and life changing and me expecting to stay the same? Because really that's diet culture in a nutshell, right? It's like, no matter what you're feeling, what's going on,

  Sarah (11:14)

  Yep.

  Casey (11:37)

  you have to eat your meal plan and that's it and that's the way it goes. Why would we abide by the same structure in life? I don't think that makes sense. It's not helpful. So when motivation is lacking, you know, for the garden, it was things I couldn't control. It was, you know, life got lifey and I didn't have as much time to invest in it. Or I had all these high hopes and

  The weather just screwed them all up. And I was upset. When looking at those, right, I can't change the weather, you know, and if that impacts some of my motivation, then that's kind of okay. But getting rid of diseased plants, that's something I could do when I had the space to do it. Was it when they first got diseased? Absolutely not. Like a weeks.

  But now that they're gone, it looks better, it might function better. So thinking of things like boundaries, which are difficult. But if there's a certain person or a certain situation in your life that's throwing you off and kind of wavering you in your recovery, then maybe that's something to assess. Is that making motivation harder?

  is that making recovery feel more like a chore because you're constantly having to fight something. Really. Are your expectations of yourself too strict, too high, too structured? Right? Because my friend who was in recovery did it this fast, then I need to recover this fast. Or my parent is saying like, you've been in therapy for however long, why is that you not fixed? Which

  Let us as therapists say that is incorrect. Can't fix it, there's nothing wrong with you. But everybody has their own timeline. So the pressure, right? So more pressure you put on yourself, the less motivation you have. I wonder why. Because it's not sustainable. Right? So I think for eating disorder recovery specifically, there's a lot of things that can throw you off. A lot.

  Sarah (13:41)

  Right.

  Casey (14:05)

  whether that's physical changes in recovery, whether that's internal or just body change in general, whether it's medical fat phobia as you're going through recovery, whether it's people in your life that just don't fucking get it, whether it's, I don't know, some triggering Instagram post you saw that just throws you for a loop. It's constant, you know, and you can't get away from it. So that's why we come at.

  all of our treatment with harm reduction. That's the goal. How do we make life a little bit easier for you? How do we make life a little less painful, a little less of a struggle? And that's not always, I'm going to be fully recovered in X amount of years and it's all going to look great. It doesn't look like that for most, if not all people. So measuring the small successes.

  When your motivation is wavering, often ask clients, like, okay, can you go back to when you first came in here? Tell me how you felt. And sometimes they'll say, well, I feel the same as I did back then. And I go, well, yes, you might feel the same, but what has

  Okay, so maybe it's my headspace today that is making us feel wonky, but that also makes me not be able to see the progress that has come. So that's our job as supportive people to help people see what they cannot due to kind of being in the hole. Which I think we've all been in the hole before, whether it's about gardening or our mental health or whatever. We haven't.

  Sarah (15:48)

  yeah, in and out. Right, yeah,

  Casey (15:56)

  We have been where that is, you know, so who am I to judge that? I can't. And motivation, just because like we go into a therapy session or into a week having limited motivation does not mean that we gain it back that week either. Might be days, weeks, months, years, you know, depending on the situation that you're in. I told Sarah at the beginning before we recorded this, said,

  You know, I feel like I always say this prior to our podcast specifically together, is I don't have a wonderful motivational answer to how to gain motivation. I think the most important thing is to listen to the lack thereof. What it's telling you. You're scared, you're stressed, you're overwhelmed, you're depressed, et cetera, et cetera. And we're not.

  robots.

  Sarah (16:58)

  Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like when we think about motivation, I think we can consider like momentum, right? Like maybe it's not so much about motivation. Maybe it's more so about even just like the tiniest bit of momentum because engaging with the lack of motivation is still helping you maintain momentum, right? You're being curious about your experience. You're trying to figure out like what's what.

  Casey (17:07)

  Mm -hmm.

  Sarah (17:27)

  where you are, what's challenging, what's easy. I think that that's, it's an important part because we're not always gonna have motivation like you just said, right? But if we can stay engaged with ourselves through those kind of down, down slopes, I guess, the momentum should carry us into something. know, whether it's in two months or two years, the more you stay engaged, the more you maintain some momentum towards where you're hoping to go.

  Casey (17:48)

  Mmm.

  Yeah. And I guess I don't know how you see the momentum thing, but for me, it's almost like it's not the fake it till you make it. It's not that I want to make sure no one perceives it. But like, there are some things that we do in our journey that we do just to do, you know, and for someone who is depressed, that could be

  Sarah (18:10)

  no, no.

  Mm

  Casey (18:28)

  You know, did I go into this journey thinking I was going to be able to brush my teeth seven days a week? Sure. When I realized I'm only doing it three, did I feel like, screw it, I'm just going to throw in the towel. And I tell my clients that it's every three days you're a winner. If you took a shower like twice this week or like sponge bath or whatever, like that's good. If you showed up to work, I don't know what you did and I don't really care.

  But if you showed up, that's great. Or if you talked to somebody about how you felt, but you still felt shitty, when? You know, like, it doesn't mean you feel totally rejuvenated doing all of these things. And I think that kind of speaks to momentum. It's like sometimes we just continue to do the thing, even though it doesn't have as much spark as it used to. Like, yeah, well, I've been brushing my teeth for

  Sarah (19:20)

  Right, right.

  Casey (19:25)

  however many years and it's like okay, that's not exciting, what motivates me to be here. It's like okay, well like let's slow down. Brushing your teeth is important. I always pick brushing my teeth. I don't know why. It is a hard one.

  Sarah (19:37)

  Well, it's a hard one. It's a hard one, especially when folks are like struggling with depression. Really, it's a really hard one. That and showering,

  Casey (19:44)

  Totally. And even something like leaving your house. That's even bigger, you know? And if you leave the house, cool, I don't care if you just walk down the street. But those things lose their spice after a while. It's like, you know, clients will come to me. And even in my own journey, I'm like, okay, I've been doing the same fucking thing for how many months or years? Like, when am I gonna get to the next step? Right? It's like, okay. Like, we can get there.

  Sarah (20:08)

  Mm -hmm.

  Casey (20:12)

  But like, can we have a better relationship with this little step that you've taken and have consistently done? I think momentum and consistency are like cousins. And consistency is something that we, I think is like the caveat to true change, especially in recovery. You know, it's like we go and we do it for a couple months and then relapse, which

  Sarah (20:19)

  Mm -hmm.

  Yeah.

  absolutely. Yeah.

  Casey (20:40)

  is okay, nothing wrong with that. But it does, and then we're back and then it's hard and the more consistency we have in all of these things, then the easier it is. And so if consistency is brushing your teeth for six months and then we talk about the next thing while we're talking about other things, that's cool. That's a win.

  Sarah (20:41)

  Right, right.

  Yeah, absolutely.

  Casey (21:04)

  So I really think it's the overarching perception of what we think healing looks like, as we've talked about before. And number two is that we don't live in a vacuum. When you go into our therapeutic spaces, they're safe, they're quiet, they're calm, they're non -judgmental, they're supportive. And then I don't know, I mean, I relatively know what happens when you leave and it's not always great.

  you know, from at least a nervous system perspective, you can feel very safe in the room with me and then you go out to your family and you're in fight or flight again. Does that mean you failed? No. It means your body did exactly what it needed to do. And so if you have more compassion towards that, the more motivated you are to start to heal.

  So if I judged my garden and said that I was at fault for the blight, I was at fault for the tomatoes not blushing, I was at fault for the sunburn, I would never go out there again. No, it would just rot and be gross. But if I understand that there's a lot of that that's out of my control and that I can be consistent in doing something, whether that's just going outside and looking at

  Sarah (22:01)

  Mm -hmm.

  Casey (22:25)

  I might not do anything with it, but I'll just look at it. And then maybe I'll pick it, maybe I'll play with it and take pictures of it and whatever. And that's enough. That keeps my motivation going so that I'm not fearful of starting another one. And I think that's important for the longevity of my green thumb. Same thing for

  Sarah (22:44)

  Yeah, I love

  Yeah, I think too, when we think about motivation, I think when folks, you know, they're starting therapy, right? And they're like, yes, I'm gonna do this, right? Like I'm all in like the, it's like the energy is there. And then life gets lifey, things get hard, right? And maybe there's not as much excitement or even like time, as much time as you had thought there would be.

  Casey (23:02)

  Mm -hmm.

  Sarah (23:17)

  to really focus on this thing. I think that that can also, you know, just get in the way of motivation because your energy is going so many other places, right? Just, you know, work, family, if you're struggling with other things, right? Like there isn't energy often to go to all of the places. I'm thinking about this because of my garden, right? I was like, I'm do this thing. It's gonna be a hobby, right? Like turns out I kept forgetting, even though it looked beautiful when I was outside, I kept forgetting.

  because I had 700 other things to do, even though I wanted a new hobby, right? Maybe not as much time in the day for such hobby or for other people, all of the recovery things or whatever. And I think what can help sometimes is to find joy in other places, right? So you had at one point some motivation to start the process, to start recovery, to go to treatment, to start therapy, to work with a dietician, whatever it is, right?

  there is some spark there, maybe you're not feeling it in that area anymore, can you feel it in other places? Like where is the spark? Where is that edge of like pull towards something, whether that's fun or creativity or something. It's like lighting these things up in our bodies can have a really wonderful impact across the board, not towards just one thing.

  Casey (24:21)

  Mmm.

  Mmm, yeah. Which is trial and error, you know? I remember my own healing journey. My husband will be laughing hysterically at this, because he was present. I started trying to make candles.

  Listen, I was gung -ho. I was like, I am so bitter about life right now, but like I need something. it sounded great. Yeah, in theory. Yeah. And then I'm in the kitchen with this like horrible colored candle all over the counter. I'm like, man.

  Sarah (25:05)

  That sounds fun. No? Okay, okay.

  Casey (25:22)

  I'm so bitter and I'm so angry and this candle is not working. But it was a representation of how I was just feeling. Right. And like maybe my mindset going into that was still bitter and angry and resentful. And so this candle was representing how I was feeling, you know. So like your garden represents like this realization of of time and time allocated and

  Sarah (25:22)

  Ugh.

  Yeah. Yeah.

  huh. Yeah. Yeah.

  Casey (25:50)

  priorities and things like that, which is neutral. It just is. And, you know, there's a lot of people, and I remember this in my own journey, who had no idea that I was struggling, let alone doing something about it. And I think I can resonate with a lot of my clients who are doing this journey fairly alone. And that makes motivation very difficult when you don't have a cheer squad being like, you know, asking you

  Sarah (25:54)

  Yeah, just as.

  Mm -hmm.

  Casey (26:19)

  how it's going or helping you with meals or asking you about your appointments, it can feel very lackluster. We all need connection. We all need someone cheering us on. And sometimes it's just your team. And if that's you and you feel kind of lack of momentum or motivation, I don't blame you. Right? So like, let's take that with some

  Sarah (26:29)

  Absolutely.

  Mm -hmm.

  Casey (26:48)

  through just understanding it and saying, okay, then maybe like a goal is to eventually have some cheerleaders. But right now, can I make my expectations of myself kind considering I feel quite lonely?

  So I think time, don't know, shit hitting the fan in your life, but also the loneliness of sometimes a very personal journey can make motivation.

  Sarah (27:19)

  Yep. Yep. Which is normal, right? It's normal. Yeah. Yeah. And recovery is hard, right? Like we're comparing to the garden, but recovery is hard. Shit is hard. Yeah. Yeah. Cause yeah, like I can just like scrap my garden, which I probably will do like fine. Like throwing it all out. I could compost. I might just put it in the cornfield. I have a big cornfield in my backyard. So with all my rotten tomatoes, I've just been throwing them into the cornfield cause the deer.

  Casey (27:22)

  Okay.

  Fuck yeah. Yeah, gardening ain't no thing compared to recovery. No way.

  You can compost

  Here we go.

  Pay forward.

  Sarah (27:49)

  Yeah, the deer are out there and the fox and the whatever live in my backyard. I'm not sure. Yeah, feeding all the wild animals. I'm sure my neighbors are happy. Anyway, all that to say, recovery is hard as shit. yeah.

  Casey (27:58)

  Exactly. But, right, and it's your life. And I think the pressure that that puts on, rather than my, I don't know, bladed tomato plants, it's an analogy, not a parallel, right? But I think that recognizing because it is your life and your life is important and your life has value,

  Sarah (28:12)

  Right. Absolutely.

  Yes.

  Casey (28:26)

  that it's so much more important for you to notice the little steps, the little things that keep you more here, more alive, less suffering. That's what we're here for. We all still have suffering in our lives and struggles and anxiety and we show up for our clients with that humanness, but sometimes our motivation lacks too, we're human.

  So we get it. It's not fun. Recovery's hard as shit.

  Sarah (29:06)

  Anything you want to add before we wrap

  Casey (29:11)

  No. I mean, hang in. You know, if your garden looks like shit right now, you're not alone. If your recovery feels like a hot tamale mess, been there. Sucks. It'll get better. Just not probably on your timeline. Just like my blinded tomato plants, they just can't do anything about it. Best thing you can do.

  Sarah (29:12)

  Hang

  I'm right there with you.

  Mm -hmm. Been there. Yep.

  Casey (29:39)

  If you have supports, let them know where you're at. Therapist, friend, family, community. And just ride the wave. It's not about fixing it right now. You know, your therapist can help you with that. But sometimes it's just feeling the suck. it's okay.

  Sarah (29:49)

  Yeah.

  Yep. Yep. And like staying tethered to yourself through it, right? Not not what's the word I'm looking for.

  Casey (30:07)

  strength.

  Sarah (30:09)

  Yes, not straying from yourself.

  Thanks, Casey.

  Casey (30:19)

  Thank you.

  Sarah (30:20)

  Good luck with your garden for the rest of summer.

  Casey (30:22)

  Keep posting.

  Sarah (30:24)

  Yeah, please do. Please do. I have one cucumber.

  Casey (30:29)

  Yeah, hey, you're thriving. You're thriving.

  Sarah (30:32)

  Yep. Yep. I don't know if it's a cucumber anymore because it turned yellow. Is that what's supposed to happen?

  Casey (30:40)

  It's a little over right, but that's okay.

  Sarah (30:41)

  I was like, I should pick that. And somebody was like, no, leave it. It needs more time. And so I left it. Now it's yellow.

  Casey (30:51)

  Yes, this is probably overripe. I think your deer will love that.

  Sarah (30:54)

  Okay, all right. Thank you very much, I appreciate that. All right, everybody.
  
  

  Well, we'll be back next week and yeah, until then take good

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Reclaim Therapy is a group of trauma therapists that provide therapy for eating disorders, EMDR Therapy and therapy or Complex PTSD.

Our team is passionate about helping people reclaim their lives from diet culture, body shame and the impact of trauma.

We would love to support you as you Reclaim YOU and the life that you undeniably deserve.

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