Reclaim You- Attachment: What It Is & Why It Matters with Katie Fries
Episode 28: Attachment: What It Is & Why It Matters with Katie Fries
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Join Sarah on this episode of Reclaim You as she dives into the intricate world of attachment with her guest, Katie Fries, a trauma and attachment specialist, group practice owner and consultant to private practices, schools and organizations.
Katie compassionately unravels the impact of childhood experiences on attachment tendencies, from anxious preoccupation, to avoidant and disorganized adaptations.
Discover the power of relational mindfulness, the importance of noticing internal reactions, and the role of therapy in creating new, healing relational experiences. Katie sheds light on these topics with warmth and compassion, offering insights that resonate deeply with the challenges and nuances of human connection.
To learn more about Katie and her practice, All of You Therapy, head to:
www.allofyoutherapy.net
And, to learn more about consultation with Katie, including private practice development, head to:
https://www.katiefries.com/
Below are the books that Katie mentioned on today's epispde:
Raising Kid With Big Baffling Behaviors
The Power of Discord
Thanks for listening to Reclaim You with Reclaim Therapy!
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[00:03] Sarah: Hi there and welcome back to Reclaim you, a podcast published by the Reclaim Therapy team. I'm so excited that my friend and colleague Katie Freeze is joining us on today's episode to talk all About Attachment. Katie is a licensed clinical social worker, registered play therapist, and certified clinical complex trauma professional. She is the owner and clinical director of all of you Therapy, a group therapy practice in Center City, Philadelphia that specializes in working with children, teens, young adults and their families. With a focus on attachment and trauma healing, Katie is passionate about helping schools and organizations learn about the impact of trauma and attachment, wounding on behavior and regulation to help people and organizations take steps towards growing in compassion and appreciation for the ways humans adapt and survive through painful life experiences. I'm so excited about this episode. So go ahead and grab your headphones and get cozy because we're about to dive in. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to reclaim you. I'm so excited to have Katie on the podcast today. She is just like a rock star in so many ways. So welcome, Katie.
[01:11] Katie: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
[01:14] Sarah: Oh my gosh, of course. I'm so excited to be talking all about attachment today with Katie. It feels like something that I guess I see mentioned a lot on the Internet and on Instagram and things like that. So it feels so important to have know context for what people are talking about when they talk about.
[01:31] Katie: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Definitely a topic I feel really passionate about and could probably talk about for hours. So happy to be chatting with you.
[01:39] Sarah: Yes. I knew you'd be the perfect person to talk about this. So to start, what I like to ask is, what does reclaim you mean to you?
[01:49] Katie: Yeah, I love that question. And I think when I think of it in the context of therapy or specifically attachment, I think so often we learn how we have to be and what parts of ourselves are acceptable based on our early experiences and other experiences within our life.
[02:06] Sarah: Right.
[02:07] Katie: So sometimes we've learned to kind of disconnect to aspects of ourselves or aspects of our emotions. So when I think of reclaim you, I think of this idea of getting to know and connecting back to all the aspects of who we are as a person.
[02:22] Sarah: I love that. Beautiful. So I guess to just kind of dive right in. Let's start with just what is attachment? When we say attachment, what is that? What do we mean by what is attachment? Why does it matter? Let's start there.
[02:37] Katie: Yeah, I think people probably have lots of different definitions, right? And lots of different kind of clinical and more informal definitions. But when I think about attachment or think about attachment theory, I think about both the ways that we learn to relate to people that we are in relationship with, right. And so it starts with our earliest caregivers, but then it extends into our friends, our coworkers, our partners, things of that nature, right. So attachment is really, when I think about it, how we have learned to relate to other people and which aspects of ourselves we have learned, we can show or not show in order to stay in connection to people. So, for example, there are certain folks who feel, I don't want to get too close because getting close feels really scary. I don't want to be vulnerable, because if I'm vulnerable, I could be in danger, I could be overtaken, or you might be really intrusive in a way that feels uncomfortable to me. And then there's other folks for whom distance feels really uncomfortable. And in order for me to be able to soothe, it's hard for me to do that within myself, and I need to be in connection or relationship with you in order to soothe.
[03:52] Sarah: Right.
[03:52] Katie: So I think attachment is so much about how we learn how to be in relationships with others, what ways that feels comfortable, what ways that doesn't feel comfortable. And then I also heard someone talk about attachment in a really interesting way where they said that attachment isn't just about how we relate to other people, but that it's also about how we relate to our own neediness. So I'll be happy to kind of dive into that because I think that was a really interesting way of thinking about it. And when we think about attachment tendencies or what people call attachment styles, that I'll talk about why I don't love the word style for attachment, that the ways that we relate to others so often mirrors the ways that we actually relate to ourselves, too.
[04:36] Sarah: Oh, wow. Yeah. Feels like there's a lot in there.
[04:40] Sarah: Yeah.
[04:40] Sarah: Let's dive into how you relate to your own neediness that feels. So.
[04:46] Katie: If so, maybe a good place to start with that is kind of talking about the different categories that researchers and folks who study attachment, way back from John Bolby and all of grad school.
[05:00] Sarah: Is like ringing a.
[05:03] Katie: Isworth, Mary May, attachment ancestors. We could say the different kind of categories that they have classified attachment. What people call attachment styles, what I prefer to call attachment adaptations.
[05:18] Sarah: Right.
[05:18] Katie: Both because sometimes when people talk about attachment, they kind of talk about it like a Cosmo quiz.
[05:24] Sarah: Right?
[05:24] Katie: Like, oh, which attachment style do I have?
[05:27] Sarah: Right.
[05:28] Sarah: Like a Cosmo quiz. That's amazing. That's so true. Yes.
[05:33] Katie: Which is fun.
[05:34] Sarah: Right?
[05:34] Katie: Like, I love a Cosmo quiz as much as anyone else.
[05:36] Sarah: Same like give me all of totally, totally.
[05:40] Katie: And I think what is neat and complex about attachment, right, is that we might have one way that we kind of lean towards. We might lean toward a more anxious, preoccupied attachment tendency or a more avoidant, dismissive attachment tendency. But there's a really brilliant therapist woman named Bonnie Badnock, and she talks about streams of attachment, right? And that every different relationship we have in our life creates a different stream of attachment inside of us. So when I think about one person in my life, that might activate a lot of disorganized energy in me or a lot of avoidant attachment in me. But when I think about or reflect on a different relationship, I might feel really anxious or I might feel more secure, right? So in geNeral, we might have a way that we tend to orient to relationships, but it's not a fixed thing, which in my mind is really hopeful.
[06:33] Sarah: Right?
[06:33] Katie: New relationship is so hopeful experiences. Yeah. And therapy can really help us work towards a secure way of relating to other people in ourselves. When we think about how attachment relates to how we kind of navigate and relate to our own neediness. The way that I think about this and have learned about this is that for folks who have, because of childhood relationship experiences, kind of created or developed, I should say more of an avoidant attachment. What that might look like is avoiding even awareness of one's own emotional experience. So that is what somebody says or how someone presents externally and they know internally that that's not the case. But other times, someone, as a form of protection and as a way of adapting, might really struggle with even being able to acknowledge or connect or honor the parts of themselves that have unmet needs, right. So that might be folks who are more on the avoidant end of the spectrum. And then for folks more on the anxious or preoccupied end of the spectrum, there might be a lot of difficulty with self soothing, right? So that co regulation that we all need may not have been given in a consistent enough manner to be able to be internalized so as to help someone recognize that when there is neediness inside of me, when there is an unmet need, whether that be for connection or care or soothing, that I can draw on internal resources to be able to meet that need. And because of that, if there's disconnection from a friend or a partner or a caregiver, there could be a lot of difficulty in soothing oneself.
[08:18] Sarah: So along with that, what about secure attachment? Can you talk a little bit about a secure attachment and what that kind of looks like? Or maybe what that feels like, and of course it will feel different for everyone, but if there's a way to kind of package that up.
[08:31] Katie: Yeah, absolutely. So when we think of secure attachment and when we think of where secure attachment comes from, I think it's so important to emphasize both for individuals who are doing their own processing around experiences of attachment, as well as for caregivers who are reflecting on like, oh, what is the attachment that I'm creating for my child, right. Or for these people in my care. What I think is so important is that perfection is not necessary.
[08:58] Sarah: Right.
[08:59] Katie: And perfection isn't even what we would be looking for. There's an amazing book that I would recommend. The name of the author is escaping me, but the name of the book is the Power of Discord. And the book talks a lot about how perfect attachment, perfect parenting isn't actually the goal. And I think that can be such a freeing recognition because so often when we work with parents, there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of fear of like, oh my gosh, am I going to mess up my kid? Do I have to put money in my kids therapy fund?
[09:35] Sarah: Right.
[09:36] Sarah: Yes.
[09:37] Katie: And while there's a part of me that's like, oh, I think that's a great idea for anyone, right?
[09:40] Sarah: Do that.
[09:42] Katie: Yes, totally right. That honestly, for secure attachment to be formed, the research shows that there only needs to be about 30% of attunement.
[09:51] Sarah: Right.
[09:52] Katie: The other 60 something percent. And again, this isn't like, teaches and helps internalize inside of a child. My needs actually matter. I'm actually delightful. I'm actually worthy of being in the world.
[10:04] Sarah: Right? Yeah.
[10:05] Katie: And when a child is able to internalize that, again, not from perfect parenting, but having their needs met consistently enough that they learn, okay, it's okay to have needs. And I can actually kind of, on an implicit, deep level, expect that my needs are going to be met, at least pretty well, then that develops an internalized sense of, my needs are okay and I'm okay.
[10:32] Sarah: Right.
[10:32] Katie: And the world is safe enough. And so what secure attachment really is, is an ability to both be in close connection with each other, as well as an ability and an okayness in having individuation and separateness.
[10:48] Sarah: Right.
[10:49] Katie: So I can soothe when I am close to you, and I can soothe when I am away from you.
[10:56] Sarah: Right?
[10:56] Katie: So secure attachment is not never needing people.
[11:00] Sarah: Right.
[11:00] Katie: That might actually be more on the avoidant or dismissive end of the spectrum. But I think sometimes people are under the impression that, oh, if I'm secure in myself, then I don't need anybody.
[11:11] Sarah: Right.
[11:12] Katie: Then I can be so independent. And that's hyper independent. Yeah, totally, totally.
[11:19] Sarah: Right?
[11:19] Katie: And energy can come from the recognition that to need people and to not have that need met can be so deeply painful.
[11:29] Sarah: Right.
[11:29] Katie: And so then folks learn to protect and care for themselves by trying to disconnect from their needs. But that's not what actually secure attachment is. And one thing that I think about is for folks who tend more towards the avoidant end of the spectrum, what attachment healing and what therapy might look like is helping those folks practice tiptoe into, okay, what is it actually like to reach out to someone? Or what is it actually like to acknowledge my vulnerability rather than keep it all within myself? Right, and that can happen in the therapeutic relationship, that can happen by the therapist encouraging the person to reach out to a friend when maybe they would not typically reach out to a friend in distress.
[12:16] Sarah: Right.
[12:17] Katie: So it's almost like stretching the attachment tendency a little bit, right? Where if someone leans in autoregulating, which is like regulating within oneself, seeking out comfort. And on the opposite side, opposite isn't even the exact word I'm looking for.
[12:34] Sarah: Right?
[12:35] Katie: But on the other side, for folks who lean preoccupied, it might be about how do we internalize a sense of co regulation? How do we internalize a sense of soothing? And this is often what it looks like when my partner doesn't text me back right away, or when the person that I'm in connection to isn't coming home when I think they're going to.
[12:58] Sarah: Right.
[12:59] Katie: How can I internalize enough regulation within myself so that my anxious energy, my anxious attachment energy inside of me doesn't have to do the thing that it's used to doing, which is maybe texting a bunch of times until this person responds back to me. And it might be about practicing noticing. Okay, what is the part that gets activated inside of me that feels really scared? How can I soothe and listen to and care for and tend to that part of me? Not because we're not in a goal of never needing soothing from anyone else, because that's not what we're going for, but in an effort to not have to stay in such a state of immense dysregulation without having someone else to soothe, if that makes sense.
[13:50] Sarah: Oh, it totally makes sense.
[13:52] Katie: Yeah.
[13:53] Sarah: And I'm just curious to kind of piggyback off of what secure attachment or what helps shape or invite secure attachment as a child, what are some of those experiences that could inform maybe some of the other attachment tendencies.
[14:08] Katie: So when we think about attachment categories, again, it's not fixed, it's not a box, it's not a blood type, right. It is fluid. And we also, in general and in different relationships, can have a tendency of leaning more avoided or a tendency of leaning more anxious.
[14:26] Sarah: Right.
[14:26] Katie: Or preoccupied. So when we're thinking about kind of what childhood or relational experiences early. Right. This is like as early as we can go back in a person's history contributes to a more anxious, preoccupied type of attachment. That would be when a person's caregiver meets their needs inconsistently. So sometimes the need is met. And again, this can be need for care, this can be need for presents, lots of different needs that children have. Sometimes the need is met and sometimes it's not. And so the metaphor that I sometimes think of, I don't know if this is a perfect metaphor for this, but the metaphor I sometimes think of is like one of those slot machines at a casino or something, right. Sometimes I'm going to get the money and sometimes I don't.
[15:13] Sarah: Right.
[15:13] Katie: But I keep on pulling the lever. Yeah.
[15:17] Sarah: Like hoping, hoping, hoping, yeah.
[15:19] Katie: Yes.
[15:20] Sarah: Right?
[15:21] Katie: And then the way that a person learns to adapt to that is sometimes getting the need met and sometimes not, which creates such an internal sense of panic and an internal sense of anxiety is I'm going to ramp up the need. Right? And again, this isn't conscious. That's what I think is so deeply important. A five year old is. I mean, maybe sometimes, but typically a five year old is not thinking like, I'm going to cry extra loud because sometimes my parent takes care of me and sometimes they don't.
[15:47] Sarah: Right?
[15:47] Katie: This is just an internal kind of authentic process that happens in a person, but the need becomes amplified.
[15:55] Sarah: Right?
[15:56] Katie: So this might look like children, and again, this over time can look like adults who might be characterized by people in their lives as clingy or kind of angry in their attempts at getting their needs met.
[16:08] Sarah: Right?
[16:08] Katie: What do you mean? You're not going to be home at 06:00? I need you to be home at 06:00 right. And that's not to say that setting boundaries with a partner or a person in your life is wrong, right. But that might look like struggling to self soothe when the person that you're in attachment with or in relationship with isn't there. And so again, what I think is so important when we're talking about any type of attachment adaptation or any type of attachment tendency is to not put blame on either ourselves or folks in our lives who are displaying these different attachment tendencies, because ultimately anything but secure attachment comes from experiences of not having had needs met or having had needs met really inconsistently. So a person with an anxious type of attachment might really amplify their need, because the internal hope or the internal expectation might be if I amplify this need, then I have more of a chance of having it met. Whereas if I kind of keep it quiet, then this person who sometimes meets my needs and sometimes doesn't, might overlook it.
[17:13] Sarah: Right.
[17:13] Katie: And that can create such a sense of internal panic. So amplifying the need is actually a really brilliant attempt at having the need met.
[17:23] Sarah: Yes.
[17:23] Katie: Which is what I think is so important about attachment and attachment adaptations is thEy're not pathology, they're not problems.
[17:30] Sarah: Right.
[17:31] Katie: They're really brilliant strategies at trying to figure out how to have our needs met, which we all need to do for survival.
[17:40] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And how the ripples, the importance is the ripples that happen before maybe we're even verbal.
[17:47] Sarah: Right.
[17:47] Sarah: Or before we can articulate what's actually going on, how they ripple out throughout our lives. Because I know a lot of the folks that we see in our practice really struggle with some of these things.
[17:57] Sarah: Right.
[17:58] Sarah: And can kind of trace it back to childhood and overwhelming things that happen in childhood that may not even be conscious. So important to understand some context behind this.
[18:09] Katie: Absolutely. I think sometimes connecting the dots can be such a powerful way of undoing shame.
[18:15] Sarah: Right.
[18:16] Katie: I'm sure in your practice, too, you hear clients or folks that you work with, say, so often, like, what's wrong with me? Or, why am I like this?
[18:23] Sarah: Right.
[18:23] Katie: And I think when we can help folks understand. Okay, your earliest years in your family or wherever you were living, the needs weren't met consistently, or your needs were belittled or berated or whatever the case might have been. And that might be a really understandable explanation for why you struggle these different ways in relationships.
[18:51] Sarah: Right.
[18:51] Katie: So sometimes understanding ourselves from that attachment lens can help us to undo the shame we might have, as well as help us be able to take steps towards shifting how we relate to people in our lives.
[19:03] Sarah: Yeah. It's like this cognitive understanding that can be this embodied understanding of why I operate, why I have urges or whatever to do what it is that I'm doing in relationship or with myself or behavior wise, all of these different ways.
[19:17] Katie: Absolutely. And then to kind of speak to the other piece of it.
[19:24] Sarah: Right.
[19:24] Katie: So avoidant attachment, or what some people might call dismissive attachment. And we'll talk about disorganized attachment, too, because that is really important. And especially when we're talking about trauma, there can often be a lot of disorganized attachment. But if we're starting with avoidant attachment, avoidant attachment really comes from experiences where a child's needs are overlooked or met pretty infrequently.
[19:52] Sarah: Right?
[19:52] Katie: So this might look like a child who, when they were crying or needed emotional support or care, was told you have nothing to cry about, or their tears were just ignored or neglected. This could also look like parents who were or caregivers who were a bit intrusive with their child, who didn't really allow their child to have a lot of separateness or individuation. And so, as a result, that child can learn, again, on a deep, unconscious level. If I want to be my own person, then I kind of have to separate from other people in relationships, because otherwise I'm going to feel intruded upon, and that feels really uncomfortable, too. But often, avoidant attachment comes from needs being minimized or berated or ignored.
[20:38] Sarah: Right.
[20:39] Katie: Parents or caregivers who might be really either overwhelmed. And again, this doesn't always come from. Oftentimes it doesn't come from parents or caregivers who are intentionally malicious or intentionally hurtful towards their children. It could also come from parents who are overwhelmed, right, by stressors, by poverty, by lots of different things, and as a result, don't have the resources, either the internal or external resources, needed to be present with their kids. Then that child who, again, turns into an adult, learns it's better for me to just try to meet my needs on my own, because being in close connection to people feels scary.
[21:25] Sarah: Right.
[21:25] Katie: And one piece of research that I find super interesting on this is when there's been kind of scans on people's brains, people who lean more anxious, and people who lean more avoidant, that there's the same level of activation happening inside of them, even though on the outside, the avoidant person can look like everything's fine, whereas the anxious person usually doesn't look like everything's fine.
[21:50] Sarah: Right.
[21:51] Katie: So that's where I think it is so important to recognize that even though folks who lean towards a more avoidant attachment tendency from the outside might look like they're super independent and might look like they're really good at self regulating.
[22:07] Sarah: Right?
[22:07] Katie: That be just an external expression of something. Whereas internally, there's still all of the activation that comes with not having needs met.
[22:20] Sarah: Yeah, it feels almost kind of like a functional freeze, right? Like externally, you're, like, smiles, everything's okay. And internally, there's like chaos ensuing, right?
[22:30] Katie: Totally. And I think sometimes that internal chaos might be known to the person, and I think sometimes that internal chaos might not be known to the person because a person just learned kind of so much to disconnect from their own needs or to disconnect from the need for connection or soothing because that need has been too painful to be in connection to, right?
[22:53] Sarah: Absolutely.
[22:55] Katie: If I have a need for soothing or a need for comfort, and that need is belittled or ignored, then how freaking painful is it for me to be in contact with that need? I might as well try again. Unconsciously, I might as well disconnect or dissociate from that need so I don't have to be in touch with the immense pain that comes from recognizing that I have a need that's not being met.
[23:15] Sarah: Yes, absolutely. And then what about disorganized attachment? I'm glad you brought that up because that does feel so important.
[23:22] Katie: Yeah, absolutely. So the way that I've learned about disorganized attachment that makes the most sense to me is by thinking about the fact that for a baby or for a child who needs soothing, right. And we'll talk about examples of needing soothing. And then the person who you would go to for soothing is actually scary or scared themselves. That creates an irresolvable experience inside of a young child, right? So for example, if a baby needs to be soothed or rocked or fed or whatnot, right, there's activation in that baby's nervous system. That activation is expressed by crying or screaming or whatnot, right. And then secure attachment happens when there's, again, some activation in the parent or caregiver's nervous system to be like, oh, the baby needs something, right? Pick up the baby, figure out what the baby needs. The parent is able to soothe the baby, right? So that baby gets to internalize that parent's soothing, so their nervous system gets to go down. And then that happens a bajillion times, right. And that patterns a person's nervous system to be able to have activation, to have energy, and then to have the energy go down. And when that happens again, not perfectly, but generally over and over and over, that creates an internalization of, okay, I can have a need, I can have activation in my nervous system, and it can be soothed.
[24:49] Sarah: Right?
[24:49] Katie: So that's what self regulation actually is. There's no such thing as self regulation. Self regulation is just internalized co regulation that a person can eventually draw on from having lots of experiences of being co regulated. But when we're thinking about disorganized attachment, what that looks like is, okay, there's activation in the baby's nervous system. There's need. But then that parent or that caregiver might come to pick up the baby and then maybe scream at the baby and say, oh, what's wrong with you? Stop crying.
[25:20] Sarah: Right.
[25:21] Katie: And what a terrifying experience for that infant of the person that I need to soothe me is also a person that's creating terror or creating distress, and that's just an irresolvable problem.
[25:36] Sarah: Right.
[25:36] Katie: And so there's no ability for that activation in that baby's nervous system to be soothed, to be down regulated by the caregiver. And so that baby might develop behavior that looks really nonsensical.
[25:53] Sarah: Right.
[25:54] Katie: And then that baby turns into. A child turns into an adult who maybe, for example, say, that's a kid who's at school and they need help with their assignment. And the teacher says, like, hey, buddy, I see this problem looks really hard. Let me come help you.
[26:11] Sarah: Right.
[26:12] Katie: That might look like a child who then throws the desk or yells at the teacher. And what is so tragic about this is that if people aren't understanding where that comes from and that that might actually be a child for whom help wasn't actually safe.
[26:27] Sarah: Right.
[26:27] Katie: Help and support was coupled with terror and fear and danger. That child, when there's an apparent offer of care or soothing what happens, what gets activated inside of that child's nervous system is streams of danger. Streams of terror, right. And so that child then is trying to do whatever they have to do to keep themselves safe. And that might look really to what the term is, might look really disorganized because there's not a clear, identifiable strategy of getting one's needs met. I've been reading this book. That's brilliant. Highly recommend. It's called Raising Kids with big, baffling behaviors.
[27:06] Sarah: Ooh, that looks like a great one. I like the COVID It's beautiful.
[27:12] Katie: Has been a long term mentor of mine, and she is brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, and talks a lot about attachment. Highly recommend to anyone that works with kids, especially kids who have big, baffling behaviors, but also parents who have their own kids with big, baffling behaviors. It is a very helpful book. And a metaphor that she gives in the book that I found just so powerful is if someone needs a piece of chocolate cake in order to live, but that piece of chocolate cake is poisonous, right?
[27:47] Sarah: Yeah.
[27:47] Katie: And so what would you do if you need to eat chocolate cake to live? But you know that if you eat the chocolate cake. It's poisonous. Chocolate cake. Like, you'd probably act pretty freaking weird around the chocolate cake, right? Maybe you take a bite, and then you would spit it out, or maybe you would push the plate away, but then if someone else took the plate, you'd be mad at, right. It would probably be such an overwhelming, confusing experience, and it would look really freaking weird for anyone who was watching it happen, right?
[28:17] Sarah: Yeah.
[28:17] Katie: So that's when we think about attachment. It's this idea of this thing that we need. The soothing, the care, the connection that we need from our caregivers, from people in our lives, because that's part of being human, has been coupled with terror and fear and sometimes with violence. And so that creates an internal sense of chaos and disruption and disorganization. That often looks like really confusing behaviors in relationships. That might look like pushing your partner away when they are offering to comfort you. That might look like wanting someone to be close and then feeling really uncomfortable and kind of angry when they're close. Again, what I think is so important about this is that for folks with disorganized attachment, it's not that they're bad, right? It's not that we're bad if we have behaviors of disorganized attachment. It's that a person's nervous system has learned that closeness, which we need for survival, is also terrifying or is also dangerous. And that creates a really deep sense of fear within a person.
[29:23] Sarah: So all of these tendencies, the way that people express their attachment, what do we do with that as adults? Now? That feels so important, too, once we realize, like, oh, ****, here I am, right? I think I identify with this, or this feels like my experience in the world. WHere do we Go from there?
[29:42] Katie: Yeah, Totally. That's where I think this idea of what some people have called, like, relational mindfulness, can come in where I think practicing noticing what happens inside of us, which certainly therapy can be really helpful for, is a big part of the process.
[29:59] Sarah: Right?
[29:59] Katie: So that might look like thinking, okay, when my partner told me that they were going to hang out with their buddies the other night, what happened inside of me? DId I get angry At Them? Did I get aFraid? Did I get scared? What were the thoughts that happened in my mind? What did I notice in my body?
[30:16] Sarah: Right?
[30:17] Katie: And again, really slowly, slowly, slowly kind of microtracting what happens in us can create insight and self awareness into what are the implicit attachment expectations that arise in our nervous systems, that arise in our bodies? Because maybe, to use that example, maybe the implicit expectation is if someone goes away from me. If someone isn't always telling me that they love me, isn't in constant connection with me, then they're never going to come back, right? And our logical adult minds might know that that's not the case. This might be a partner who's actually very consistent, but what might arise in a person's body or nervous system might be the sense of, I'm going to be left, right, or kind of on the other end of the spectrum for folks who lean more avoidant, if a partner is wanting to move a relationship forward or wanting to be more serious, that might activate inside of a person a sense of terror, right? And what could be helpful for that person might be to explore or notice, okay, what is the fear that's arising in me? Am I afraid that I'm not going to have autonomy? Am I afraid that I'm going to be overtaken in some way? Am I afraid that I won't be able to be an individual?
[31:34] Sarah: Right?
[31:35] Katie: So it might really look like noticing both cognitively in our minds and our thoughts as well as in our bodies. What are these implicit meaning below the level of conscious awareness activations that arise in us and then practicing. And this is where the help of a therapist can be so useful, practicing self soothing, right? And sometimes the self soothing might look like, how do I be okay in myself without needing again? Because oftentimes, attachment, these struggles come up in romantic relationships or close relationships. Not always, of course. They come up in friendships and with colleagues, attachment kind of can extend into all sorts of art relationships, right? But oftentimes we think about this in the context of close partner relationships. And so that might look like, okay, can I actually, for folks who lean more avoidant, can I talk with my partner about the fear that's arising and making this relationship more serious or more consistent rather than just ghosting or rather than just pulling away.
[32:38] Sarah: Right.
[32:39] Katie: And for folks who lean more anxious or more preoccupied, that might look like practicing and learning how to name. Hey, when you say that you're going to hang out with your buddies, something gets really activated in me. I get really nervous, and I'm noticing a part of myself, right? Sometimes naming parts can be so helpful, I'm noticing a part of myself that wants to scream at you and tell you you're a bad person if you go hang out with them, right? And then being able to have that conversation with your partner about what gets activated, rather than speaking from the activated part, which might look like saying to your partner, well, if you go hang out with your buddies, then you don't love me, right? Or then you don't care about me.
[33:23] Sarah: Right?
[33:24] Katie: So kind of being able to step back and notice the parts of ourselves that carry these attachment streams, that carry this attachment energy so that we can invite the people in our lives, the people who we're in relationship with, to provide soothing, to provide reassurance, right? Not in a compulsive way, because we want to learn how to provide that for ourselves too, but to be able to kind of step back from what's happening inside of us so that we can talk about it, I think is a big, big piece towards shifting towards a more, what sometimes people call earned, secure attachment way of being.
[34:00] Sarah: Is there anything else that feels important to mention on this kind of bird's eye view of attachment that you so beautifully spoke to? Anything else you feel like is important to add or name or share?
[34:11] Katie: Yeah, I think kind of, as I mentioned earlier, I think the thing I would really want to emphasize is that attachment adaptations are brilliant, right? They are brilliant, brilliant ways of learning how to stay in connection to people. And some of us have learned that in order to stay in connection, we have to amplify our needs. And some of us have learned that in order to stay in connection, we have to down regulate our needs or disconnect from our needs, right? So we don't do that because we're bad. We don't do that because there's something wrong with us. We do that because we all need to stay in connection to others for relational and physical survival. And we've learned how to do that.
[34:49] Sarah: Right?
[34:49] Katie: So I think my hope would be that as people explore and get to know what their attachment tendencies might be or what their attachment leanings might be, that that can be done from a lens of compassion and from a lens of appreciation for the ways that one has learned to survive and that we can find people in our lives who are not perfect.
[35:12] Sarah: Right.
[35:13] Katie: Because we're not perfect. None of us are perfect.
[35:14] Sarah: Right?
[35:15] Katie: But that can provide opportunities for attachment repair, because I think that is where ultimately these patterns can have the opportunity to shift.
[35:26] Sarah: Right? Yeah.
[35:27] Katie: Not through reading a bunch of self help books, although, trust me, I love doing that myself.
[35:31] Sarah: Right?
[35:31] Sarah: I'm like, tell me more books, Katie.
[35:35] Katie: Right? And there's certainly parts of me that are like, oh, if I could just figure out everything through a book, that would be amazing, right?
[35:43] Sarah: I could know it all. If I could know it all, it.
[35:46] Katie: Would all be okay, right? It's such a juicy fantasy. But I think what truly heals these patterns or what can help shift these patterns is by having new relational experiences, right? If we expect, for example, our tenderness or our vulnerability to be met with dismissal or to be met with aggression, and if we can be brave enough to allow new relationships into our lives, whether they're friend or peer or romantic relationships or therapeutic relationships, where we can be brave enough to slowly open ourselves up to showing our vulnerability, to showing our tenderness and having that met with care, then that creates memory reconsolidation, right? That creates this mismatch experience inside of us that can slowly allow us to trust that there can be a different way of being with ourselves and a different way of being in relationships. And I think that is ultimately what promotes healing, especially attachment.
[36:46] Sarah: And speaking of therapeutic relationships, tell us about your practice, about what you guys do, where you are all of those good things.
[36:55] Katie: Absolutely. Yeah. So I own all of you therapy, and we are a small group therapy practice, physically, located in Center City, Philadelphia. But we're able to work with folks anywhere in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and we really love and specialize in working with trauma and attachment. So when I say attachment, sometimes people are like, what does that mean?
[37:18] Sarah: Right.
[37:18] Katie: And so I kind of clarify that by saying that might mean folks who are wanting to explore the impact in their present life of challenging family experiences, challenging childhood experiences, whether that be of family dysfunction, childhood neglect, abuse experiences, things of that nature, as well as the ways that that might be coming out in the present, things like really difficult breakups or difficulties in navigating relationships, those sorts of things. So that's in kind of, when we're working with adults, that's a lot of what we do. And then we also do a lot of work with children or children and their parents in recognizing that if we can support parents in understanding what's happened inside of them, that's maybe making it hard to connect with their kids or making it hard to connect with their kids in the way that they would like to. And not just focusing on trying to have the parent connect differently with their kid, but first and deeply supporting the parent in connecting to themselves in a self compassionate way, then we know that if we can do that, that can really help strengthen the healthy attachment between parents or caregivers and their children. So that's a lot of the other work that we like to do. So we do that in a lot of ways. EMDR, internal family system parts work, all of those kinds of things, including play therapy, art therapy. So really love to kind of work with folks in a way that connects to their emotions and their bodies and not just through trying to change thoughts or cognitions. Because sometimes we know, especially when we're talking about attachment, that's a lot deeper of a process that we sometimes need other tools and techniques to be able to address.
[38:59] Sarah: And you also do some consulting too on the side. If you want to share a little bit about that, I'd love to link to that you have two separate websites, but to that website as well, so that folks can maybe find you there if it feels like something that they might be needing. Sure.
[39:13] Sarah: Yeah.
[39:13] Katie: Thanks. So a few different things that I do personally on the consulting side and that I've done more recently and really love is doing some training and teaching for organizations or for schools on trauma informed care. So have had the privilege of speaking to some schools and some daycares on understanding how to kind of reframe challenging student behavior through the lens of trauma and regulation. So really love doing that and have done some other training and consulting related to childhood neglect and kind of understanding the ways that that can manifest. And then outside of the clinical teaching, also really enjoy supporting folks in building their practices and kind of stepping into the private practice field should they decide to. So lots of different.
[40:02] Sarah: Awesome, awesome. Well, Katie is a rock star and I'm happy to have her as my friend and colleague and a safe referral source for folks from our practice. And I'm just so grateful that you're able to come on and talk about this. I feel like there could be like seven different offshoot episodes from this one episode, but you spoke to it so beautifully. So thank you so much for taking the time and so appreciate it.
[40:26] Katie: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's so good to be in connection with.
[40:30] Sarah: Course, of course. Okay, everyone, I will link to Katie's websites and also the couple of books that she mentioned earlier, the Power of discord and raising kids with big baffling behaviors.
[40:42] Katie: And I'm going to thank you again.
[40:43] Sarah: And we'll be back next week with another episode. So until then, take good care. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Reclaim you. Be sure to like comment and subscribe and check us out on YouTube at reclaim you. If you're looking to start therapy for trauma, disordered eating or body image concerns, head over to our website at ww reclaimtherapy.org to learn more about us and our work. We'll be back next week with another episode.
[41:10] Katie: Until then, take good care of yourself.
Reclaim therapy provides specialized trauma treatment in Horsham, PA, body image therapy and therapy for eating disorders in Pennsylvania.
We are a group of trauma therapists in Horsham, PA who specialize in eating disorder treatment, therapy for binge eating disorder, EMDR, EMDR for binge eating and EMDR for eating disorders. We also treat CPTSD and provide treatment for childhood trauma in Horsham, PA.
We’re passionate about helping people reclaim their lives from body shame, diet culture and the impact of trauma.
We would love to support you as you Reclaim YOU and the life that you undeniably deserve.