Reclaim You- Shame: What It Is and Where It Comes From
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In this episode, Sarah and Casey discuss the topic of shame.
They explore the definition of shame and differentiate it from guilt. They also dive into the origins of shame, including childhood experiences and societal influences. The impact of shame on relationships and body image is examined, highlighting the importance of understanding and addressing shame. The episode concludes with a discussion on healing from shame and the role of self-compassion in the process.
Takeaways
Shame is a deep sense of wrongness about oneself, often rooted in childhood experiences and societal influences.
Understanding the difference between shame and guilt is crucial, as guilt is related to actions while shame is an identity-driven belief.
Shame can impact relationships and body image, leading to negative core beliefs and confirmation bias.
Healing from shame requires understanding its origins, mapping out shame beliefs, and practicing self-compassion and self-care. Recognizing that shame is a survival response can help individuals navigate their healing journey with patience and self-acceptance.
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00:01] Sarah: Hi, there. Welcome to reclaim you, a podcast published by the reclaim therapy team. Join us as we share stories, tools, and insights on how to reclaim you in the wake of trauma, disordered eating, and body shame. Grab your coffee, tea, or your favorite snack and get cozy, because we're about to dive in.
[00:19] Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to reclaim you. Good morning, Casey.
[00:23] Casey: Good morning.
[00:24] Sarah: How you doing?
[00:25] Sarah: I'm good. How about yourself? Doing okay. Gearing up to talk about shame today.
[00:30] Casey: Yay. Don't everybody get excited all at once.
[00:34] Sarah: I know, but people do want to hear about shame, because on Instagram, it was 50 50 with the other topic that Laura will be talking about next week. But, yeah, shame. There's lots to shame. Lots there.
[00:48] Casey: I think whenever I'd read out the topic of shame, which we'll get into what it is in a second, I think most people give me the look. I don't know. I've heard that word a lot, right? It comes up, but I don't actually know what that means, how I'm connected to it, or I've heard about it, and I don't want to be connected in any way, shape, or form to that word. It sounds evil. So that's been my experience in working with folks and then thinking about my own shame. Like, oh, God. When I actually think about it, I'm like, I'm riddled, riddled, riddled. So if you feel like, oh, it's so heavy, I got you. I'm with you. It just airs with you.
[01:33] Sarah: My God.
[01:34] Casey: No one to me.
[01:35] Sarah: Yeah, right? Last night, I was deep, deep into shame spiral. Deep. Yes.
[01:42] Casey: Terrible.
[01:43] Sarah: Because I forgot this one little thing, just one little thing for my son, and it just pulled me in, and I was sitting here, sitting here texting my husband, who was downstairs saying, like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I did this. What is wrong with me? Why couldn't that deep, like, what in the world is wrong with me?
[02:03] Casey: What in the world is wrong with me? Yeah, I'm trying to think of one Seamus Roddo for me race. And I think it was a more stressful work week, and I didn't want to reach out to anybody. I was like, I should be able to handle this myself. And I'm like, why should I be able to handle this myself? Well, if I'm needy, then this means I'm this my burden. I don't want to bother people. And I think a lot of the shame stuff has become normalized in society. We drive off of it. So let's rewind. Rewind talking about it without actually explaining what it is.
[02:43] Sarah: What is shame?
[02:44] Casey: What is shame? Okay. The way that I describe it to folks is like a general wrongness about yours, right? There's something wrong with the wife of Nate. I am blank. I am bad. I am unworthy. I ****** up. I'm damaged. Damaged. I'm broken. I'm a burden. Any negative, strong rooted identity within yourself, the shame, which is different than guilt. Right. Guilt is how we feel in connection with something you have done. Right. When shame is a I identity driven beast that develops over time. Anything to add about the definition of shame?
[03:34] Sarah: No, I think you're right on. Right. Like guilt versus shame, they get confused a lot. I think Brene Brown talks a lot about this, that I am bad versus I did bad. Is that the analogy she uses?
[03:46] Casey: Yeah, that's the one I heard. More action based versus just a being often inhaled in your gut and your soul. And guilt drives something, right? Whether it's rational, irrational, it doesn't matter. It does drive us to a purpose of some sort. Right. If I cut somebody off on the road and I paid attention to that and I felt bad, well, that's normal, because cutting someone off is not subjectively correct.
[04:20] Sarah: Right.
[04:20] Casey: But shame is one of those things that, well, you start to talk about it in your healing journey. Why? Either I'm so strong in this belief that nothing else matters, and anything you tell me is going to be egodistonic, right? Like, against what I believe, or I'm going to be so overwhelmed by the fact that I can't understand the purpose of this shame. Right? If it's causing me so much discomfort, why am I feeling it? Why can't I change it? And I think that is the part that has a really loaded answer. But I think the first part is understanding it.
[05:06] Sarah: That understanding cognitively exactly what it is, and then even understanding for yourself how it shows up, when it shows up, what that narrative in your mind is as it kind of emerges, or even it might just be there, lingering. Just lingering, as this default narrative think is different for everyone. So, yeah, that understanding it. Understanding it for you in your life.
[05:30] Casey: Yes. And you can start to understand that. I almost think of shame as, like, this huge highway. There's so many ways to understand it that there's no cookie cutter. Right? So for some people, it's like, oh, well, I keep behaving in these patterns that don't end up serving me in the long run, whether it's relationships or work manage or what have you, and I don't understand. And so you go backwards and you say, well, what does this action maybe protect you from? Like, if you didn't do this thing, what would be showing up for you? And then maybe you'll find it down there, down deep. Or you can go the route of, I have these feelings that show up all the time, these emotions, whether it's disappointment or fear, anxiety. And then you connect it, maybe to the things that you do or the way you behave, and then you can find it there. Or as you start to explain the narrative of your life, which I always like to add the caveat, and you don't have to share your story to heal. Right. But some people feel comfortable doing that, and that's fine, that the narrative will come up because of the way that they were treated growing up or through their life or what they were told. Right? So some things can be very obvious. Like if you had a parent say, you're stupid, you're dumb, you're not going to amount to anything. A belief is a thought you hear over and over. So if you keep hearing that, the most protective thing for you to do is to internalize that.
[07:09] Sarah: Yeah.
[07:10] Casey: Why would you fight against it, especially in a vulnerable place? And then the other one is when it comes to more nuanced things of abandonment or neglect or things of that nature, where it's easier and makes more sense for us to say, well, why did someone abandon me? Well, it must be because of me. Because if you were to say, oh, well, somebody just isn't showing up for me because they're not showing up, that's so hard to understand and accept.
[07:40] Sarah: Right? Yeah.
[07:43] Casey: I can't accept that. I don't have an answer. And so the shame kind of closes that loop and relieves some of the yearning, the lack of closure, whatever. But long term ends up being this thing that you try to confirm all the time. So it's a lot to say. There's many different avenues to come from to find out what your shame beliefs are.
[08:09] Sarah: It is an adventure. And I think talking about shame, and we can talk more about maybe childhood and the development, the roots of shame into maybe childhood, but also when we're talking about body image, diet, culture, things like that, it feels just so important to name that body image stuff. It can come from lots of places. And one of those places is often the culture that plants seeds of shame, saying, you are not good unless you.
[08:38] Casey: Are x, y, and z.
[08:41] Sarah: Right? You are not desirable, you are not lovable. Right. You won't fit into this community of people unless you are x, y, and z.
[08:51] Casey: Yes.
[08:53] Sarah: That's so concrete. So in your face, if we think about it, what we are exposed to from such a young age, it's there, right? And so we internalize it, right? Because it's all we hear, it's all we see. And then if we have someone in our homes or in our lives, in our communities, speaking poorly about their bodies, it reinforces that narrative that, oh, wait, so mom says, this is bad. This is gross. This is whatever it is. That must be true about me, too, right? Little brains make sense of things, like, really concretely, actually, and really in a protective way.
[09:32] Casey: Right? And then that can still show up in adulthood in those relationships, too, where your mom says it again, and you're like, oh, it takes me back to when I was. It brings me way back. I was almost thinking of the podcast we did together last time about relationships, right? And that's another confirmation bias right there, where the way that people behave around me, if I already think that I am a problem because of my body, that, again, just confirms that belief. And we live in a world of confirmation bias. So thinking about shame in that way and that there's always going to be triggers. We kind of talk about body image and eating disorders the same way. It's like giving yourself some grace, considering you live in a really dangerous place to heal from that. There's a lot of risk involved. There's a lot of really brute force challenging those narratives, and that's really hard. There's going to be back force. You're going to feel scared to do that, and sometimes you won't be able to. That's just a matter of fact. I've let shame run my life at a time, too. Easier.
[10:39] Sarah: It is, yeah. But it also feels like it keeps you safe, right?
[10:45] Casey: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. We've talked about trauma on the podcast, and we probably will continue to. The things that we do to keep ourselves safe doesn't necessarily keep us comfortable. And I think the more we understand that piece of trauma, the further we can get because we question ourselves. Right. There's shame in trauma healing in general. Right. I should be healing faster. Why is this so hard? Why does the shame keep showing up? Right. Like, it's everywhere and it's all protective.
[11:21] Sarah: Absolutely. And so with that, let's go back. Let's go back to childhood a little bit. Because whenever I think about shame, I just think about the impossible situation for young little humans in the world. Little kids, even adolescents, whatever. Childhood, when we think about folks who didn't have enough something emotional attunement right? Maybe there was neglect, maybe there was abuse, maybe there was too much, too soon, whatever it was, how biologically, as kids, we're driven to attach to the very people that could be making us feel like we're bad, that we deserve whatever it is, and how our brains, because of that biologic attachment, our brains make sense of it by saying, well, I need to love them. They need to take care of me. They are safe even when they're unsafe. And so we internalize it as well. I must be the problem. I must be bad, right. Because to make sense of like, no, actually, they're bad. I don't use bad freely. They're bad. What they're doing is bad. What they're doing is wrong. What they're doing is harmful. Our brains, as little people, can't make.
[12:31] Casey: Sense of that because that's also dangerous.
[12:33] Sarah: Yeah.
[12:34] Casey: Right. If we were even entertain accepting that they're bad in any way, where does that leave a vulnerable child, right.
[12:42] Sarah: Without attachment, which is like not survival, right?
[12:45] Casey: No, totally. And I think that this is such an important piece of it and also something that a lot of people that I've worked with have had struggle to accept. Right. So there's this piece of understanding it, but then there's this piece of accepting it. Right. That your brain did everything it could to stay safe in connection, even though it was high risk. Yeah, that's really hard to conceptualize, but I think it's important to come at it from a survival standpoint. I think a lot of narrative around shame is self compassion. Listen, I'm all about the self compassion. I love it.
[13:27] Sarah: Love it.
[13:28] Casey: But let's remember that to trauma survivors, vulnerability is dangerous.
[13:35] Sarah: It is. Yeah.
[13:36] Casey: Right.
[13:36] Sarah: Because again, it means not surviving. Right.
[13:39] Casey: Right. So let people who are listening to this podcast be encouraged by the fact that that's like the end game, right? Like, the things that we read or the things that we see is like, self compassion is the key to all of it, in a way, and very nuanced. And might you, at the end of your journey, be able to fully embody self compassion or close to. Hopefully. But let's remember that this journey is starting off very small of like, can compassion just be understanding it? Right. And maybe you start by understanding it on someone else, and then you start to understand it within yourself. Shame is trauma based. It just is. If we didn't experience some form of trauma, which we go back to too much, too little, too fast, too soon, you can't quantify trauma. Right. That that means we need to be very slow and methodical and take pauses and do the things that we need to do, because this has started so early. ****, it might have even started before you were born.
[14:49] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.
[14:51] Casey: Like, if you're a child of Karen who had an abusive relationship. Right. That shame we know can pass through, and then you literally are born with it. And then. Right. Like, that's pre verbal worth. But again, let's start small. Understanding the poor beliefs that you do have. Right. And which ones are shame driven, which ones are not. I think that's important is to kind of understand all of your beliefs and which ones are riddled in shame and just understanding where they might have come from. And then, like, the snowball, because that's usually what happens. They just snowball from then. And the things in your life that have contributed to that. And then how do they show up today? Do a map, visual in your head, doesn't matter mind map. Do artwork.
[15:45] Sarah: And it does feel important that this understanding, mapping it out, understanding it cognitively is so important. And you can't think your way out of shame, which is maybe what we can cover in our next shame episode.
[16:01] Casey: I love that.
[16:02] Sarah: To say that. Right? Yes. We all kind of like body image stuff, right? Like, you can't think your way out of the thoughts about you being ethically flawed. Right. Like, thinking your way out is just going to pull you back into the cycle. So understanding it with this bird's eye view of. Okay, let me consider where this shame, how this shame is showing up, where it's landing, where it may have kind of stemmed from. Right? And we know that when shame floods, shame floods us, it all goes offline. Right. And there you are, deep into the **** of what shame feels like. Right.
[16:42] Casey: No, that's so important. We'll give a little teasers. Right. Like, in a way, shame is a freeze response, which means that it's a nervous system function, which means that we need to embody safety to start to heal from that. Let's not flood everybody who's listening with too much, but first, it's understanding. And I think for a lot of people, that can also be really frustrating. It's like, I'm suffering right now. What's going to help me now? To which my usual response is recognizing that you've survived this long with these now unhelpful tools. Having negative core beliefs or challenging core beliefs is the way that you have survived. And that is badass.
[17:29] Sarah: It is badass. And that now is different than then.
[17:33] Casey: Yes.
[17:34] Sarah: Right. That coming back into the here and now where, yes, maybe your shame triggers are getting. It was like rapid fire, right? Everything's landed in the shame. And you're bill wishing kind of like me last night, right. And coming back to the fact, like, this is now. This is what's different now. This feels like then, right. And here I am here right now, just to give you a little bit of distance. You can still feel it, you can still experience it. You may still get wound up in it, but this pendulation out of then into what is, is just a little tiny way to make a little bit more space. Yes.
[18:12] Casey: And those are the little micro steps in healing, which we need to learn to look at as big steps in the future. Right. As we continue on. But if you have shame, you're not alone.
[18:26] Sarah: Totally.
[18:27] Casey: You're one of every person in the universe that's use humanhood.
[18:32] Sarah: Right.
[18:33] Casey: Humanhood.
[18:34] Sarah: So do you think we covered enough for our first in our series of episodes on shame? I think so.
[18:39] Casey: I mean, that's a lot.
[18:41] Sarah: This is the hard thing about content on the Internet or on podcasts is that there's so much nuance here, right? There's so much nuance, and there's not a lot of quick fixes, even though. Yeah, I'm a quick fixes, too. Right? Everybody wants a quick fix, but doesn't really exist. Just doesn't exist. No.
[19:06] Casey: Kind of to tap on to what you said, sarah. It's like that little micro distance from it, but also like, using the tools that we've talked about in past podcast episodes. Right. Like finding micro moments of safety and community and connecting to your values and self compassion when you can find it. And it's tolerable to do so. Getting into your body, feeling that, moving your body in a way that feels good, consuming media that validates what you feel or what you want to feel, rather. I think those are also things almost think of this podcast as, like, humility building on each other. And so if you haven't seen our other episodes, take a listen and use that stuff, too. This is like, some heavy stuff, but it doesn't mean we can't use our bare bones basics to take care of us in micro moments.
[20:04] Sarah: Yeah. This is episode 44, so there's 43 other episodes of really solid stuff, solid conversations.
[20:12] Casey: Yeah. And so we'll have multiple episodes involving shame.
[20:16] Sarah: We sure will.
[20:17] Casey: This is number one.
[20:18] Sarah: We're having a niche focus on shame, Casey and I.
[20:22] Casey: Yes.
[20:24] Sarah: Anything before we head out?
[20:27] Casey: No. We all have shame. We work through it, understand it. We recognize our survival.
[20:36] Sarah: We keep jumping. Yeah, as slow as you need. Like dory. Just keep swimming. All right, Casey, thank you, thank you, thank you. And we'll be back in, I guess it will be a month. We'll have another episode on shame. Casey and I will dig in a little bit more. And if you have questions, always find us on instagram. Find us on our website all of the ways. We will be happy to chat with you more or field any questions that we can answer on the podcast. We're here. And be sure to check out the membership portal, the free membership portal, solid meditations to support some of the conversations that we've been having over the past just about year on the podcast. I'll link to it in the show notes. Yeah, it's there to provide just an extra layer of support for anyone who needs it. We'll be back next week for another episode. Next week, Laura and I are talking all about the idea of control in eating disorder.
[21:41] Casey: Ooh, it's a good one.
[21:42] Sarah: I know. Let's flip it on its head a little bit. All right, everybody, take good care. We'll see you next week.
[21:48] Sarah: Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of reclaim you. Be sure to, like, comment and subscribe and check us out on YouTube at reclaim you. If you're looking to start therapy for trauma, disordered eating or body image concerns, head over to our website at ##Therapy org to learn more about us and our work. We'll be back next week with another episode. Until then, take good care of yourself.
Reclaim therapy provides therapy for complex PTSD in Horsham, PA and eating disorder therapy in Pennsylvania.
We’re passionate about helping people reclaim their lives from the impact of trauma, diet culture and body shame.
We would love to support you as you Reclaim YOU and the life that you undeniably deserve.